A quick look into what Obamacare will be like

[callmeslick]

The gubmint isn't overstepping it's power if you're a socialist marxist like Slick and his buddy Obama Bin Laden.

Obama Bin Laden is a socialist/Marxist?? You are one clueless soul, Ruggie.
As for me, I don't believe in collectivist economies, but in regulated capitalism(we had that in this nation
between 1932 and 1980).

[Wullie]

Time to bring it out again.



As far as his health care plan?

[callmeslick]

It's not the government's job to make healthcare affordable for all.
It wasn't the government's job to introduce wellfare, social security, or any of that bullshit.

OK, let's run with this chestnut of a generous social outlook. Whether or not it was 'the Government's Job'
at the outset, the nation was founded at a time when we had sparse population, lots of land, lots of opportunity, and a social network that persisted well into the 19th century. Then, came industrialization.
By your reckoning, Tolwyn, I suppose it's just hunky-dory to have:
1. Sweatshops
2. Child labor
3. A short life expectancy, due to the elderly dying from neglect and poverty.
4. High crime rate due to desperate poor folks.

not to mention what other social ills are addressed by 'all that bullshit'. That 'bullshit' is social welfare, for the good of the whole society, and is a shared ideal of all nations considered civilized(not to mention a few I wouldn't even call civilized). The sad thing that an American sees and hears from contact and serious exchanges with Europeans is how little we ask of our politicians, in terms of protecting the interests of the common citizen. We expect little, we get even less, and do nothing about it except whine, or in your case, Tolwyn, come up with some archaic notion of Adam Smith-type capitalism, which even Smith knew would not work in an unregulated fashion. Smith, for instance, decried corporations because of the focus on profit for the investors over that of the workers. He preferred small, family or tightly owned private companies.
So yes, it IS the government's job to confront excesses and abuses resulting from corporate greed, personal avarice and outright fraud. The founders created the very loose set of guidelines they did knowing
that, as time went on, the status quo changes. You know why?? Because, almost to a man, the founders were the type of progressive thinkers that would be branded 'Liberal' by some of the nutjob political pundits today. Then again, the founders represented folks with an interest in how they were governed that went far beyond whining about it, and were willing to participate in bettering the society in which they lived.

[ruggbutt]

1. Sweatshops

Never gonna happen, ever again. Because of lawyers and lawsuits

2. Child labor

See above

3. A short life expectancy, due to the elderly dying from neglect and poverty.

Health care in this country is better than it's ever been. The fact is that people are living longer, even the "poor". Whether you like it or not.

4. High crime rate due to desperate poor folks.

Point me to a time when there was no crime in this country. Or are you just trying to "scare" everyone into thinking that if the gubmint doesn't intervene this is what will happen? (that was rhetorical BTW)

So yes, it IS the government's job to confront excesses and abuses resulting from corporate greed, personal avarice and outright fraud.

Correct. Too bad it's government that was an accessory to perpetrating these things.

the founders were the type of progressive thinkers that would be branded 'Liberal' by some of the nutjob political pundits today. Then again, the founders represented folks with an interest in how they were governed that went far beyond whining about it, and were willing to participate in bettering the society in which they lived.

The founders were smarter than what we're seeing running for office and congress these days. If it weren't for all the big money to be made from lobbyists we'd see more progressive thinking along the lines of what this Constitutional Republic is supposed to be. Even you can read the founding fathers' documents to see that in a nutshell our "liberal" predecessors said that we should be able to do whatever the fuck we wanna do, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of another.

Both political parties today are the exact opposite. I wish that I could go back to 1775 and tell our founding fathers one sentence: Term limits on congress and federal judges as well.

[callmeslick]

1. Sweatshops

Never gonna happen, ever again. Because of lawyers and lawsuits

no labor laws(ie: government involvement), no lawsuits.

Health care in this country is better than it's ever been. The fact is that people are living longer, even the "poor". Whether you like it or not.

in great part due to Social Security, and Medicare. Both of which are not government's responsibility, according to Tolwyn. Oh, and while we are living longer, many other nations with more comprehensive and enlightened health insurance policies live longer.

Point me to a time when there was no crime in this country. Or are you just trying to "scare" everyone into thinking that if the gubmint doesn't intervene this is what will happen? (that was rhetorical BTW)

I can't, and didn't suggest that there was. But, in a densely settled nation, poverty will breed increased crime.

Correct. Too bad it's government that was an accessory to perpetrating these things.

explain, please.

The founders were smarter than what we're seeing running for office and congress these days. If it weren't for all the big money to be made from lobbyists we'd see more progressive thinking along the lines of what this Constitutional Republic is supposed to be. Even you can read the founding fathers' documents to see that in a nutshell our "liberal" predecessors said that we should be able to do whatever the fuck we wanna do, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of another.

Both political parties today are the exact opposite. I wish that I could go back to 1775 and tell our founding fathers one sentence: Term limits on congress and federal judges as well.

quit wishing, get off your ass and do something about it. While you're at it, get others to join with you, and make sure you pass it along to your kids. This is an example of the cheap talk and complete lack of balls shown by the American electorate. The founders gave us the tools. We've just collectively let them down.
Who was it that said the electorate gets the Democracy they deserve??

[Jumoschwanz]

It is funny when people living in a democracy say that this and that something is not the Governments job. In a Democracy, where the government is actually supposed to be the people, when enough people who want the government to do something vote for it, it is then the governments job.

Democracy is undermined in the United States by the 1-2% of the population that spends billions of dollars that the rest cannot lobbying elected government officials, such as the nearly billion dollars spent each year by drug companies on lobbyists in Washington.(my brother owns a lobbying firm in D.C.) Also this small percentage of the population pours billions more into flooding the media with propaganda for those on the low side of the Bell Curve to eat up.

The governments and legal systems of Democratic countries strive for and are based on the ideal of a fair shake for each citizen. If this ideal does not suit you there are many military and totalitarian Dictatorships you may be more happy living under.

[CUDA]

here's some Government 101 for ya. in America we dont live in a Democracy. in a Democracy EVERYTHING would be put to a popular vote and the people would really run everything. America is a Democratic Republic, where the people elect a representative and those people are the ones who run the country. you get very little say as to how things will be run.

[Daiichidoku]

here's some Government 101 for ya. in America we dont live in a Democracy. in a Democracy EVERYTHING would be put to a popular vote and the people would really run everything. America is a Democratic Republic, where the people elect a representative and those people are the ones who run the country. you get very little say as to how things will be run.

very amusing when i hear americans (or kanadians, for that matter) go on about how they are in a "free" country

perhaps not a kick-in-the-nutsac kind of oppression of other places, more like a nickel-n-dime or "death by a thousand cuts" oppression...but certainly not "free"

[callmeslick]

It is funny when people living in a democracy say that this and that something is not the Governments job. In a Democracy, where the government is actually supposed to be the people, when enough people who want the government to do something vote for it, it is then the governments job.

Democracy is undermined in the United States by the 1-2% of the population that spends billions of dollars that the rest cannot lobbying elected government officials, such as the nearly billion dollars spent each year by drug companies on lobbyists in Washington.(my brother owns a lobbying firm in D.C.) Also this small percentage of the population pours billions more into flooding the media with propaganda for those on the low side of the Bell Curve to eat up.
The governments and legal systems of Democratic countries strive for and are based on the ideal of a fair shake for each citizen. If this ideal does not suit you there are many military and totalitarian Dictatorships you may be more happy living under.

Bingo!! We have a winner.

[callmeslick]

here's some Government 101 for ya. in America we dont live in a Democracy. in a Democracy EVERYTHING would be put to a popular vote and the people would really run everything. America is a Democratic Republic, where the people elect a representative and those people are the ones who run the country. you get very little say as to how things will be run.

um, that is decidedly NOT how it was intended to work. Jefferson(and others) built a system which relied on a well informed and involved populace. Thus, a group willing to hold the elected to their responsibilities to the people, and with the knowledge to see when a governing elite develops.