Well, about that winning hearts and minds thing in Astan

[fatman]

And where is the worldwide outrage for the otherside
How do you think this ended

[nuf]

dumb kids who signed up freely to go into another country to kill its people

And here i was thinking they signed on to defend the US you knwo home and hearth, im sure that almost everyone over there does not want to be there.

That is what they have been told and i´m sure many going in believe(d) that but when you really look at the situation it is hard to see in what way they are defending the US now. Granted, those supporting AL Qaida with 9/11 needed to be dealt with but everything that came after it (wanting to make a democracy out of a country with no national sense whatsoever and stuff like that) is just a costly clusterfuck with thousands of civilians killed so far.

And what i find ironic in a fecked up political situation the hadji rebels in Libya have fought in Afghanistna against the US now they are de facto allies and might even be armed, now i find that more repulsive than mere photos

Yeah, this is world politics. it has been like that for centuries. One dirty business.

[nuf]

When we start comparing us to terrorist we set the mark really low. We in the west should never compromise our ethics and sink to the level of the most extremes of our enemies to justify our crimes.

When we become like them we have truelly lost.

And where is the worldwide outrage for the otherside
How do you think this ended

[nuf]

Nuf, I am well established, on the record, saying the "media" does not belong on the "battlefield". For, the very reasons
that you mention. The "hearts and mind" statement is pure political bullshit. You know it, I know it and everybody with any
common sense knows it... The winner of any fight, is the one who dictates the terms....not the dumb fuck who negotiates them.

Even with no official media on the battlefield with todays modern communication technologies the soldiers spread videos and pictures themselves anyway. I think it is good that the common people see what war really is about and that it´s not some awesome hollywood movie.

Historical Reference: Go back about 65 years and fast forward to present, take a look at Germany, Japan and Italy.

Like i´ve said in the past this historical reference doesn´t work concerning Afghanistan. The countries you name were nations with people sharing a certain bond, with modern means of education, a good infrastructure, ideas about rules of law (however twisted they were in many cases) and very deep hierarchic structures in society which were respected.

Afghanistan has nothing of that, it´s a fragmented country with mainly tribal structures and no experience or desire in democracy. Being there is a waste of time and money, makes noone safer, creates enemies and leads to crimes which make the population suffer and damage the wests´image beyound repair.

The only alternative to that would be wiping out a couple of million Afghanies. And by that time welcome to a nuclear war with Pakistan.

[fatman]

We in the west should never compromise our ethics and sink to the level of the most extremes of our enemies to justify our crimes.

And that just comes down to morals which are fluid and what crimes posing with a body dude come on there are no laws against that it just might be viewed as distastful, lets not forget we stopped gibbeting not even 200 years ago

[Darkhorse]

dumb kids who signed up freely to go into another country to kill its people

And here i was thinking they signed on to defend the US you knwo home and hearth, im sure that almost everyone over there does not want to be there.

That is what they have been told and i´m sure many going in believe(d) that but when you really look at the situation it is hard to see in what way they are defending the US now. Granted, those supporting AL Qaida with 9/11 needed to be dealt with but everything that came after it (wanting to make a democracy out of a country with no national sense whatsoever and stuff like that) is just a costly clusterfuck with thousands of civilians killed so far.

Well explain why we are in Afghanistan!

[Pudfark]

When we start comparing us to terrorist we set the mark really low. We in the west should never compromise our ethics and sink to the level of the most extremes of our enemies to justify our crimes.

When we become like them we have truelly lost.

And where is the worldwide outrage for the otherside
How do you think this ended

The only way to defeat/beat terrorism?
Is to be better at it...than them.

Anybody involved in a fight? That worries about what others might think of them?
Is going to lose the fight.

Any one who has ever fought?
Knows this.

Them what have never fought?
Can only speculate.

That would be you, nuf.....no disrespect directly intended...

[nuf]

Noone can really explain why we still are in Afghanistan. I think two factors may be especially important (but i´m speculating here):

1) The west doesn´t want to acknowledge it can´t win in Afghanistan because a defeat makes him look weak and vulnerable. Other "failed states" actors might feel encouraged to mess with the west more.

2)Noone wants to be the person who "lost" Afghanistan. that´s why it gets dragged on and on until somebody else is responsible and takes the majority of the blame. Of course that person will try to hold out as long as possible to put the blame on somebody else as well.

Even the political and military leaders only spek in very generic terms about the situation because they know how problematic it is. You always hear "we´ll leave when it´s safe enough and when the Afghans are able to take the responsibility themselves." This will very likely not happen for a long time. Even when the situation gets calmer it will get wilder once the west leaves. Pakistan and Iran will take care of that.

Well explain why we are in Afghanistan!

[Pudfark]

Well written nuf.
I agree with much of that.
However, I disagree with Iran and Pakistan taking care of it...
I think, ultimately it will be China or India...more likely, India.

[nuf]

The only way to defeat/beat terrorism?
Is to be better at it...than them.

Wow, ok you support terrorism and want the US to be the best terrorists in the world? I have good news for you: A lot of people world wide alread think that. At least that is the impression i get by browsing numerous forums. Good job i guess.

Anybody involved in a fight? That worries about what others might think of them?
Is going to lose the fight.

What do you suggest? Genocide? Nuking Afghanistan?

Any one who has ever fought?
Knows this.

Pud, i have talked to people who have fought in Afghanistan and believe it or not i had the impression they still had pride and ethics and they didn´t think anything goes in war. They didn´t support the murder of civilians, they didn´t want to kill children and they didn´t think war is FPS awesome. You may not like it but if your side acts like terrorists and doesn´t worry about how it is perceived around the world it will lose the fight. It will even lose the fight in your own country.

Them what have never fought?
Can only speculate.

That would be you, nuf.....no disrespect directly intended...

Ah, only indirect disrespect?

So i take it you have fought in a war?