Afghanistan - how the press lies all the time...

[Pudfark]

Respectfully, reporters don't win wars or conflicts....the past 50 years or so, suggests this.

Wiki ain't much of a "source"...as anybody can post anything there....verifiable or not...and frequently they do.
The time line you displayed (accurate or inaccurate) is over the last 10 years...my comments are about the use of
drones and their ability to factually record the events before, during and after....so look at the figures you posted
and see how the "numbers" have dramatically shrunk....

No Reporters = No Spin, No Misinformation and No Propaganda.
Drones = No casualties sustained by our forces...They are a substantially cheaper way to kill the enemy.
To be blunt, there is nothing scientific about this strategy...it's common sense and affordable.
It seems to be working....IED's are not very effective on drones.....

Check the link out below....

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/20/nato- ... civilians/

[nuf]

I wouldn´t trust a single source from any camp but overall by having multiple sources of information we can get a general impression of the situation over there. Like many i use various sources to inform myself about the topic and have spoken to civilian and military personal to get more information.

Reporters are an important part in conflicts as they serve the pourpose to inform the public -

I really wouldnt take what they say in general at face value most of the crap out there these days is so slanted its not funny. In fact the only reporter i wouldnt bother checking up on in Yon and only because so far he tells it like it is

[nuf]

Pud, it´s not about wether drones can serve a pourpose in wars or not. They do under certain circunstances. What they don´t do - and that was what imo you suggested - is winning the war in Afghanistan on their own.

Wether in one special case or the other civilians were or were not killed is not the measurement of wether that strategy would work. It is apparent that without proper intel (and videos are NOT enough) drones are rendered useless pretty fast. This is not a country like Iran where if you destroy enough of its infrastructure you might get the leaders to surrender.

Afghanistans infrastructure was destroyed countless times and they still never lost a war. This is a country where most of the people don´t see themselves as a part of a nation like in Iraq, Iran or Egypt. Tribes and Families are the important areas, they set the rules. Noone in the countryside sees Karzai as their leader, Kabul is far away and has nothing to do with how the majority of Afghans live. Many of the people called Taliban are just peasants who want to protect their village or their familiy. They often don´t know and most of the time don´t care about the west. They just want to be left alone. Thats what sources on the ground often say and imo that makes sense.

Bombing them from the sky will not achieve much. The afghan people must get into a position to be able to deal with their problems alone. We can not do that for them. We can only hope to help them to get into the position to do so.

Respectfully, reporters don't win wars or conflicts....the past 50 years or so, suggests this.

Wiki ain't much of a "source"...as anybody can post anything there....verifiable or not...and frequently they do.
The time line you displayed (accurate or inaccurate) is over the last 10 years...my comments are about the use of
drones and their ability to factually record the events before, during and after....so look at the figures you posted
and see how the "numbers" have dramatically shrunk....

No Reporters = No Spin, No Misinformation and No Propaganda.
Drones = No casualties sustained by our forces...They are a substantially cheaper way to kill the enemy.
To be blunt, there is nothing scientific about this strategy...it's common sense and affordable.
It seems to be working....IED's are not very effective on drones.....

Check the link out below....

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/20/nato- ... civilians/

[Pudfark]

Nuf, there is nothing to win in A'stan and I mean nothing...We are not at war with A'stan, we are just there to hunt terrorists...and to that end, drones get the job done... IMO, leave A'stan to the Chinese, they have more financial interests there, than we do.....

Hypothetically, if we were to "win" in A'stan? Just what would we get tangibly for the lives and money spent there?
The bottom line? Leave the terrorists there to rot and spend the money on our border security to keep them out...
A'stan is a great place to train folks for our "Drone Program".....The future of US Military aviation is UAV's. Pilot training costs are reduced, aircraft are cheaper and no need for ejection seats......

Not arguing, just saying.........

[nuf]

Imo we win the war in Afghanistan when we don´t lose it. The allies are in danger of losing their face and like you and me noone really knows what they´re fighting for and if it´s worth the sacrifices. I´m convinced the political and military leaders are just trying to somehow get out of there without the place going up in a civil war which might destabilize the whole region. Especially the situation in Pakistan is way more dangerous and important to world peace than Afghanistan. But certain Pakistan acteurs are more or less directly supporting the Taliban (the pakistani secret servics ISI even helped to fund the original Taliban) and other opposition forces. The situation is very complex and it´s not easy to get out which is what everybody wants but can´t do.

Nuf, there is nothing to win in A'stan and I mean nothing...We are not at war with A'stan, we are just there to hunt terrorists...and to that end, drones get the job done... IMO, leave A'stan to the Chinese, they have more financial interests there, than we do.....

I find the statement below to very very cynical and inhuman. I don´t share this viewpoint.

Hypothetically, if we were to "win" in A'stan? Just what would we get tangibly for the lives and money spent there?
The bottom line? Leave the terrorists there to rot and spend the money on our border security to keep them out...
A'stan is a great place to train folks for our "Drone Program".....The future of US Military aviation is UAV's. Pilot training costs are reduced, aircraft are cheaper and no need for ejection seats......

Not arguing, just saying.........

[Pudfark]

Deadly U.S. Drone Strikes Resume in Pakistan, Adding to Increasingly Strained Relations

The below quote is from the posted link in reference
to civilian casualties from drone interdiction.....

"There hasn't been a single non-combatant casualty since last summer,” this official noted. “And it's ridiculous to think that you can't go after lower-ranking terrorists who, among other things, are targeting American forces in Afghanistan -- not to mention our homeland."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/21 ... z1Eeq66T6R

[Pudfark]

Imo we win the war in Afghanistan when we don´t lose it. The allies are in danger of losing their face and like you and me noone really knows what they´re fighting for and if it´s worth the sacrifices. I´m convinced the political and military leaders are just trying to somehow get out of there without the place going up in a civil war which might destabilize the whole region. Especially the situation in Pakistan is way more dangerous and important to world peace than Afghanistan. But certain Pakistan acteurs are more or less directly supporting the Taliban (the pakistani secret servics ISI even helped to fund the original Taliban) and other opposition forces. The situation is very complex and it´s not easy to get out which is what everybody wants but can´t do.

Nuf, there is nothing to win in A'stan and I mean nothing...We are not at war with A'stan, we are just there to hunt terrorists...and to that end, drones get the job done... IMO, leave A'stan to the Chinese, they have more financial interests there, than we do.....

I find the statement below to very very cynical and inhuman. I don´t share this viewpoint.

Hypothetically, if we were to "win" in A'stan? Just what would we get tangibly for the lives and money spent there?
The bottom line? Leave the terrorists there to rot and spend the money on our border security to keep them out...
A'stan is a great place to train folks for our "Drone Program".....The future of US Military aviation is UAV's. Pilot training costs are reduced, aircraft are cheaper and no need for ejection seats......

Not arguing, just saying.........

Nuf, there is no way to win the war in A'stan, at least not in a conventional understandable sense...
The sense where you occupy and hold territory...free the folks, let'm have democracy...for heavens sake, they
live in mud huts and have no education...maybe, just maybe, one in one hundred is capable of grasping and utilizing
the concept of democracy....the other 99 your gonna have to fight all the time...Nobody has ever conquered A'stan for
one reason? Nothing there to take but problems, it simply had no value... Arguably it has a little value now, however, not
enough of it to offset it's internal problems...

Let China have the problem..they might have something to gain there...and as for the region, China is closer..
A'stan is utterly worthless...and not America's problem or responsibility...We need to leave...We owe them nothing and
they have no ability to repay....much like Iraq, we get less than 25% of their oil exports....

[Pudfark]

Here is another example.....

Military Rejects Claim Petraeus Accused Afghans of Burning Children to Up Casualty Count

A U.S. military spokesman is rejecting reported characterizations of remarks by Gen. David Petreaus in a national security meeting in which he was said to have accused Afghans of burning their own children to exaggerate claims of civilian casualties following a U.S. operation against insurgents.

The sources for the story did not provide exact language of the meeting in the presidential palace, which centered on discussion of a joint investigation into a multi-day operation last week in the mountains of Ghaziabad, in which Apache helicopters fired on insurgents.
The governor of the town of Konar told military officials that villagers said about 50 died in the operation, but Rear Adm. Gregory J. Smith, the top U.S. military spokesman in Kabul, told the Post that he reviewed the footage and "found no evidence women and children were among the fighters."

Smith added that U.S. military officials had received reports of "children being disciplined by having their hands and feet dipped into boiling water. No one is claiming this is the case in this instance, but it may well be."
Smith told Fox News the newspaper incorrectly characterized Petraeus' comments as suggesting that Afghans were burning their children to create the appearance they were injured by NATO forces.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02 ... z1EieYHloj

Well folks...I'm backing up my comments...Do you still think we need to be in A'stan? Damn near all air strikes are being filmed...Why? Because they are killing their own for "propaganda" reasons
and a nice fat payout from the U.S. Nothing like having your wife and kids...as a cash crop...and a religion that supports it.

How's that for "Inhuman" nuf ?????

[callmeslick]

Bottom line, Pud(and, although you are a more recent addition here, I've been saying this for close to 7 years now) is this: What we should have done in Afghanistan was obvious. They had ignored our more gentle requests to stop coddling Al Quaeda types, and the result was 9/11. We should have, unilaterally, pummelled the bejeezus out of the place, stood back, and asked the world, "OK, anyone else wish to fuck with us?". No tiptoeing, no nation-building, and sure as fuck no wandering into Iraq or whatever the hell is going on in Pakisstan. Just a simple "Don't you EVER.....". Would have saved a couple trillion dollars, a lot of US lives, and truth be told, probably a lot of civilian lives, especially in other places like Iraq. You don't think Pakistan would've grabbed any escaped or surviving Taliban/Al Q types? You don't think Saddam would have gotten real compliant, real fast?

Now, fast forward to the current clusterfuck. I see no real good ever coming from being there, relations deteriorate daily with Pakistan, we've lost resources, both human and economic, and gained NOTHING.

[Pudfark]

I completely and totally agree...with you on this one...