But McVeigh didnt just target a large building he was specifically targeting the feds and one thing that the Murrah building had was that it housed the fed agencies that he hated, the atf, fbi, and the dea also this building was set a bit away from others so collateral damage and casualties would be kept low.callmeslick wrote:Still, the bottom line is that 'being all pissed off' is not reason to target any large building, isn't it??
Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
Re: Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
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Pudfark
Re: Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
Here's another rib tickle fer the doubters..........
Texas Plane Attack Prompts Debate Over Terrorism Label
Sunday, February 21, 2010
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Jay Janner, Austin American-Statesman via AP
AUSTIN, Texas — When a man fueled by rage against the U.S. government and its tax code crashes his airplane into a building housing offices of the Internal Revenue Service, is it a criminal act or an act of terrorism?
For police in Austin, it's a question tied to the potential for public alarm: The building set ablaze by Joseph Stack's suicide flight was still burning Thursday afternoon when officials confidently stood before reporters and said the crash wasn't terrorism.
But others, including those in the Muslim community, look at Stack's actions and fail to understand how he differs from foreign perpetrators of political violence who are routinely labeled terrorists.
"The position of many individuals and institutions seems to be that no act of violence can be labeled 'terrorism' unless it is carried out by a Muslim," said Nihad Awad, director of the Washington-based Council on Islamic-American Relations.
Within hours of Thursday's crash, which several witnesses said stirred memories of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, both federal and local law enforcement officials, along with the White House, said it did not appear to be an act of terror. A widely quoted statement issued by the Department of Homeland Security also said officials had "no reason to believe there is a nexus to terrorist activity."
SLIDESHOW: Small Plane Crashes Into Austin Office Building
Yet at the same time, Stack's motives for flying his single-engine plane into a seven-story office building after apparently setting his house on fire were becoming clear as detectives, reporters and others found a rambling manifesto on the Web in which he described a long-smoldering dispute with the IRS and a hatred of the government.
In the note, Stack said he longs for a big "body count" and expresses the hope that "American zombies wake up and revolt."
"To keep the government from getting money, he burned his house. To keep them from getting money he crashed his airplane," said Ken Hunter, whose father Vernon, a longtime IRS employee, was the only person killed by Stack's attack. "That's not the act of a patriot. That's the act of a terrorist, and that's what he is."
RAW DATA: Joseph Stack Suicide Manifesto
LinksLIVESHOTS: Victim in Austin Plane Crash Identified
Stratfor, an Austin-based global intelligence firm specializing in international risk management, said the rhetoric in Stack's rant clearly matches the USA Patriot Act's definition of terrorism: a criminal act that is intended to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping."
"When you fly an airplane into a federal building to kill people, that's how you define terrorism," said Rep. Michael McCaul, a Texas Republican whose district includes Austin. "It sounds like it to me."
It doesn't to Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo, who instead sees an isolated, criminal attack carried out by a lone individual. He said branding the crash as terrorism so soon after the plane's impact could have provoked unnecessary panic and prompted residents of Austin and beyond to erroneously conclude that other attacks might be imminent.
"I did not want to use it because I didn't want people that have children in school and loved ones at work to be panicking, thinking that, 'Oh my God, is there going to be 10 more little planes around the country crashing into buildings?"' Acevedo said. "I knew that this appeared to be one guy in one city in one event."
Other experts agree. Ami Pedahzur, a professor of government at the University of Texas and author of the book "Suicide Terrorism," said that while Stack's actions might be viewed as a copycat version of 9/11 attacks, they fall short of terrorism.
Pedahuzur said there is no evidence that Stack was involved in a highly planned conspiracy, and descriptions of Stack's state of mind in the days before the crash suggest the software engineer "snapped" after suffering an emotional breakdown. His manifesto was filled with rants that were just as personal as they were political, such as his complaint that corrupt politicians are not "the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say."
Also fer you doubters...the above contains...both sides of the questions/investigation.....and was published yesterday, fer them what can't tell time.
Old Pudfark sez: " The most dangerous thing in the world?...Is a pissed off, non caring human being "
Texas Plane Attack Prompts Debate Over Terrorism Label
Sunday, February 21, 2010
Print ShareThis
Jay Janner, Austin American-Statesman via AP
AUSTIN, Texas — When a man fueled by rage against the U.S. government and its tax code crashes his airplane into a building housing offices of the Internal Revenue Service, is it a criminal act or an act of terrorism?
For police in Austin, it's a question tied to the potential for public alarm: The building set ablaze by Joseph Stack's suicide flight was still burning Thursday afternoon when officials confidently stood before reporters and said the crash wasn't terrorism.
But others, including those in the Muslim community, look at Stack's actions and fail to understand how he differs from foreign perpetrators of political violence who are routinely labeled terrorists.
"The position of many individuals and institutions seems to be that no act of violence can be labeled 'terrorism' unless it is carried out by a Muslim," said Nihad Awad, director of the Washington-based Council on Islamic-American Relations.
Within hours of Thursday's crash, which several witnesses said stirred memories of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, both federal and local law enforcement officials, along with the White House, said it did not appear to be an act of terror. A widely quoted statement issued by the Department of Homeland Security also said officials had "no reason to believe there is a nexus to terrorist activity."
SLIDESHOW: Small Plane Crashes Into Austin Office Building
Yet at the same time, Stack's motives for flying his single-engine plane into a seven-story office building after apparently setting his house on fire were becoming clear as detectives, reporters and others found a rambling manifesto on the Web in which he described a long-smoldering dispute with the IRS and a hatred of the government.
In the note, Stack said he longs for a big "body count" and expresses the hope that "American zombies wake up and revolt."
"To keep the government from getting money, he burned his house. To keep them from getting money he crashed his airplane," said Ken Hunter, whose father Vernon, a longtime IRS employee, was the only person killed by Stack's attack. "That's not the act of a patriot. That's the act of a terrorist, and that's what he is."
RAW DATA: Joseph Stack Suicide Manifesto
LinksLIVESHOTS: Victim in Austin Plane Crash Identified
Stratfor, an Austin-based global intelligence firm specializing in international risk management, said the rhetoric in Stack's rant clearly matches the USA Patriot Act's definition of terrorism: a criminal act that is intended to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping."
"When you fly an airplane into a federal building to kill people, that's how you define terrorism," said Rep. Michael McCaul, a Texas Republican whose district includes Austin. "It sounds like it to me."
It doesn't to Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo, who instead sees an isolated, criminal attack carried out by a lone individual. He said branding the crash as terrorism so soon after the plane's impact could have provoked unnecessary panic and prompted residents of Austin and beyond to erroneously conclude that other attacks might be imminent.
"I did not want to use it because I didn't want people that have children in school and loved ones at work to be panicking, thinking that, 'Oh my God, is there going to be 10 more little planes around the country crashing into buildings?"' Acevedo said. "I knew that this appeared to be one guy in one city in one event."
Other experts agree. Ami Pedahzur, a professor of government at the University of Texas and author of the book "Suicide Terrorism," said that while Stack's actions might be viewed as a copycat version of 9/11 attacks, they fall short of terrorism.
Pedahuzur said there is no evidence that Stack was involved in a highly planned conspiracy, and descriptions of Stack's state of mind in the days before the crash suggest the software engineer "snapped" after suffering an emotional breakdown. His manifesto was filled with rants that were just as personal as they were political, such as his complaint that corrupt politicians are not "the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say."
Also fer you doubters...the above contains...both sides of the questions/investigation.....and was published yesterday, fer them what can't tell time.
Old Pudfark sez: " The most dangerous thing in the world?...Is a pissed off, non caring human being "
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callmeslick
- Posts: 16473
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:02 pm
- Location: Fearing and loathing in Delaware and Virginia.
Re: Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
The bottom line is that Hassan, McVeigh and this guy last week are all the same. Pissed off losers with an irrational response to personal anger.
Oh, and sorry Ruggie, if I got you confused with someone else who had espoused the conspiracy theories
regarding McVeigh. I've heard it so many places by now, I might have forgotten who put it out on here.
Oh, and sorry Ruggie, if I got you confused with someone else who had espoused the conspiracy theories
regarding McVeigh. I've heard it so many places by now, I might have forgotten who put it out on here.
Re: Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
Not sure what you mean by conspiracy theories and McVeigh. There was a middle eastern man with him when the truck was dropped off at the Murrah building. The first day there were tons of news reports with a sketch of the guy. Then nothing after that. The Feds caught the head guy so they stopped looking for others. Not impressed by the Justice Department on that.
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Pudfark
Re: Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
Slick..it seems to me..that a fellow like you...who alludes to a "higher understanding" of things...is being pretty "narrow minded" about this particular event and the others that preceeded it....How many events like this one...does it take to get you to at least acknowledge "the other side of the coin"......????
Old Pudfark sez: " This here be a discussion "
Old Pudfark sez: " This here be a discussion "
Re: Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
Hassan was a Muslim terrorist, Stack was a pissed off nut job and McVeigh could go either way depending on how much research you do and how you interpret it. I am with Rugg on the DOJ investigation into McVeigh. They are far from being the same Slick!callmeslick wrote:The bottom line is that Hassan, McVeigh and this guy last week are all the same.
Now we have demonstrable evidence that if you try to lead from behind, eventually the guys up front will stop looking back for instructions.
Government-coerced expression is a feature of dictatorships that has no place in a free country
Government-coerced expression is a feature of dictatorships that has no place in a free country
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Pudfark
Re: Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
I'm a hoping this here will be the last of whut I copy and paste....on this subject....
Joseph Stack's Daughter Considers Her Dad a HeroUpdated: 3 hours 15 minutes ago
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Dana Chivvis
Contributor
(Feb. 22) -- The daughter of Joseph Stack, who flew a small plane into a federal building in Austin to protest the IRS on Thursday, answered "Yes" on "Good Morning America" when asked if her father was a hero, saying "now maybe people will listen."
Samantha Bell, Stack's 38-year-old daughter from his first marriage, told "Good Morning America" that her father's suicide mission was "wrong" but said she agrees with his anti-government message.
"I think too many people lay around and wait for things to happen, but if nobody comes out and speaks up on behalf of injustice then nothing will ever be accomplished," Bell said.
Before he allegedly set his house on fire, loaded his small airplane with an extra gas tank and flew it into a building that housed IRS offices, killing IRS employee Vernon Hunter and himself, Stack posted a ranting anti-government manifesto online.
"I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are," he wrote. "Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let's try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well."
Bell said she thought her father burned his house down because property taxes represented the government for him, and she shares his disillusionment. She moved to Norway after losing her job in the middle of a pregnancy, claiming Medicaid would not take care of her.
Stack's suicide mission has given rise to a number of supporters online, including Facebook groups like "The Philosophy of Joe Stack" which has nearly 2,000 fans; tributes on personal Web sites; and even a video game in which players have to burn down a house and fly a plane into a building. Experts are concerned his act could inspire copycats.
Texas Department of Public Safety, AP
Joseph Stack flew his small airplane into an office building in Texas on Thursday, killing an IRS employee and himself.
Vernon Hunter's son, Ken Hunter, says his dad, a Vietnam veteran, is the one who is a hero.
"How is it that you can call someone a hero, who gets, after he burns his house down, who gets into a plane and takes out seats, puts an extra gas tank in it and deliberately flies it into a building to kill people," he said.
Bell said there were no warning signs that her father was about to snap. She said he was a quiet man who kept his frustration to himself.
"The father I knew was a loving, caring, devoted man who cherished every moment with me and my three children, his grandchildren," she said. "This man who did this was not my father."
Filed under: Nation
Again, fer the doubters.....ain't this pretty close to the scenario I presented in the post that initiated this thread? I ain't a sayin I was right totally, I'm a sayin that some you was a hell of a lot less right, totally.
Old Pudfark sez: " I don't want this kind of change "
Joseph Stack's Daughter Considers Her Dad a HeroUpdated: 3 hours 15 minutes ago
Print Text Size E-mail More
Dana Chivvis
Contributor
(Feb. 22) -- The daughter of Joseph Stack, who flew a small plane into a federal building in Austin to protest the IRS on Thursday, answered "Yes" on "Good Morning America" when asked if her father was a hero, saying "now maybe people will listen."
Samantha Bell, Stack's 38-year-old daughter from his first marriage, told "Good Morning America" that her father's suicide mission was "wrong" but said she agrees with his anti-government message.
"I think too many people lay around and wait for things to happen, but if nobody comes out and speaks up on behalf of injustice then nothing will ever be accomplished," Bell said.
Before he allegedly set his house on fire, loaded his small airplane with an extra gas tank and flew it into a building that housed IRS offices, killing IRS employee Vernon Hunter and himself, Stack posted a ranting anti-government manifesto online.
"I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are," he wrote. "Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let's try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well."
Bell said she thought her father burned his house down because property taxes represented the government for him, and she shares his disillusionment. She moved to Norway after losing her job in the middle of a pregnancy, claiming Medicaid would not take care of her.
Stack's suicide mission has given rise to a number of supporters online, including Facebook groups like "The Philosophy of Joe Stack" which has nearly 2,000 fans; tributes on personal Web sites; and even a video game in which players have to burn down a house and fly a plane into a building. Experts are concerned his act could inspire copycats.
Texas Department of Public Safety, AP
Joseph Stack flew his small airplane into an office building in Texas on Thursday, killing an IRS employee and himself.
Vernon Hunter's son, Ken Hunter, says his dad, a Vietnam veteran, is the one who is a hero.
"How is it that you can call someone a hero, who gets, after he burns his house down, who gets into a plane and takes out seats, puts an extra gas tank in it and deliberately flies it into a building to kill people," he said.
Bell said there were no warning signs that her father was about to snap. She said he was a quiet man who kept his frustration to himself.
"The father I knew was a loving, caring, devoted man who cherished every moment with me and my three children, his grandchildren," she said. "This man who did this was not my father."
Filed under: Nation
Again, fer the doubters.....ain't this pretty close to the scenario I presented in the post that initiated this thread? I ain't a sayin I was right totally, I'm a sayin that some you was a hell of a lot less right, totally.
Old Pudfark sez: " I don't want this kind of change "
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callmeslick
- Posts: 16473
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:02 pm
- Location: Fearing and loathing in Delaware and Virginia.
Re: Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
elaborate. What, exactly, do you feel is 'the other side'? As you yourself stated, certain things are 'blackPudfark wrote:Slick..it seems to me..that a fellow like you...who alludes to a "higher understanding" of things...is being pretty "narrow minded" about this particular event and the others that preceeded it....How many events like this one...does it take to get you to at least acknowledge "the other side of the coin"......????
and white'. Either what all those folks did is wrong or it isn't, the way I see it. How do you?
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callmeslick
- Posts: 16473
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:02 pm
- Location: Fearing and loathing in Delaware and Virginia.
Re: Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
in details, yes. But, what I was saying, in context, is that all of them committed irrationally heinous acts for no legitimate reason. In that way, they are the same. Being a Muslim terrorist is, morally speaking, utterly the same as what McVeigh did, or what this most recent fellow did. There is no shading, either such acts are right, or wrong. You cannot excuse one without giving all three a pass. All three could easily be described with the phrase, "pissed-off nut job". Would you feel differently, and if so, why?Darkhorse wrote:Hassan was a Muslim terrorist, Stack was a pissed off nut job and McVeigh could go either way depending on how much research you do and how you interpret it. I am with Rugg on the DOJ investigation into McVeigh. They are far from being the same Slick!callmeslick wrote:The bottom line is that Hassan, McVeigh and this guy last week are all the same.
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Pudfark
Re: Domestic Terrorism - Pay the "Piper" ?
Slick, I think everybody agrees on the wrong...this incident and the others. The flip side is: What are the proximate cause(s)?callmeslick wrote:elaborate. What, exactly, do you feel is 'the other side'? As you yourself stated, certain things are 'black
and white'. Either what all those folks did is wrong or it isn't, the way I see it. How do you?elaborate. What, exactly, do you feel is 'the other side'? As you yourself stated, certain things are 'blackPudfark wrote:Slick..it seems to me..that a fellow like you...who alludes to a "higher understanding" of things...is being pretty "narrow minded" about this particular event and the others that preceeded it....How many events like this one...does it take to get you to at least acknowledge "the other side of the coin"......????
and white'. Either what all those folks did is wrong or it isn't, the way I see it. How do you?
A discerning person could ask/say things like this:
Mental Illness?
Depression?
Drugs?
Government Failure of some sort?
Terrorist Act?
Domestic Homicide Bomber?
Folks that were inteviewed, seemed to indicate that the behaviour exhibited by Stack prior to his act was "normal".
What set him off?
What could set other "copy cats" off?
Will this incident be ignored by the govt. and citizens?
What are the reasonable things that can be done to prevent this in the future...is it preventable?
So, Slick...it is a hell of lot more than the black or the white of it...the right or the wrong of it....and to accept that violent act as just that...is to bury one's head in the sand.........
Old Pudfark sez: " Just a little...heads up "