Google translate this bitches

[nicolas10]

Nothing to do with where you get your education from. I think one of you has to be a dumbass.

I'll go get my popcorn and let you guys sort it out

Nic

[nicolas10]

More seriously though, if you agree with what's said, and that the educational level is kept low in order to increase grasp on the plebe, why do you think the left is responsible for that when the repubes have been in power half the time?

I think where you are deluded is when you think that it's one of the party's fault, when actually the higher ups control both parties, foster the hate between dems & republicans and use it. Alternating parties is actually totally in their interest.

Nic

[Pudfark]

No argument from me, nic.....I'm Tea Party, commonly associated with the repube party, cuz folks see them similar....I don't. Oh, the left is responsible for it. The repubes wuz asleep at the wheel.

[callmeslick]

Here's my input. First off, most of my primary education was in Delaware. By the time of was of that age,
my Dad was an executive with DuPont, so I was living there most of the time(with monthly trips to VA and
several weeks in the summer). I was educated in the public system, even though my folks would have gladly sent me to a prep school, I wanted to go to school with my local friends. It was a VERY good public system.
Post secondary education was in New England. Education has ALWAYS been highly valued by my family, and the following thoughts are those of someone who values education and considers it vital to the health of a society.

First off, I don't think there is or was any 'plan' to turn US Students into non-questioning sheep. What I do think has happened over my lifetime is that, by and large, the education of our young people has turned to complete shit. This problem is largely societal, cutting across ideological lines. However, two ideological issues are MAJOR drivers to the current state. Since you all are convinced that I never hold liberals blameless, I will start with the Liberal issue. Somewhere along the way, we got some sort of obsession over here with 'self esteem' of our young and the bizarre notion that we avoid having winners and losers. This is a deadly notion if one expects to raise children able to compete in the real world. In doing so, we have lessened the presence of advanced tracks in education, which in the past provided our leaders, scholars and innovators. The real world is and always will be competetive and taking that out of youth leaves kids unprepared for the harsh realities and the work needed to overcome them.
On the right wing, we have, for over two decades, seen the rise of Christian Conservatives, who have, sad to say, bred suspicion of learning and ESPECIALLY science. This nation once was the absolute pinnacle of scientific knowledge and learning. However, when a group of people comes along who work to convince their kids that the Earth is only 8000 years old, and do so by telling them that Science has lied to them, those children are handicapped, mentally, for life. Futher, when these loons seek to impose such ideas on the educational system as a whole, you slowly work to kill Science education. Hell, we have a museum built to celebrate 'Creationism' that is wall to wall with 'facts' that run counter to the known facts about evolutionary biology and that fact alone should be a source of national shame.Add to that, the diminishment of much genetic study and medical study for religious reasons(thanks, fools, for killing embryonic stem cell research for 10 critical years, for example), and you have a recipe for disaster in a world that will absolutely require cutting edge scientific thinking from coming generations.
Finally, due to no particular ideology, this nation has come to de-value education. Who can be surprised when
a parental class that spends time focused on American Idol, celebrity worship and the like doesn't know or care what their children are learning in school. Add to that politicians ready to use the education system as a political football, and you have the current state of affairs.

Now, Nic, I know that none of the above(or very little) addresses that more compliant nature of American youth. That might lie in the fact that America has always been about homogenaity(the melting pot ideal) and conformity has been the norm since the 1940s. Sure, the 1960's brought some counter cultural stuff to the forefront, but only briefly. By and large, the US is a nation whose populace has always been leery of cutting edge art, music and culture. Toss into that mix a suspicion of education, a vilification of science and a consumer culture elevating 'celebrity' and you generate stupid people by the millions. And, ultimately, stupid people are compliant people.

[callmeslick]

one follow up for Nic. All of what I wrote about American education refers to public education. On the private side, there are two extremes. Elite prep schools and some Catholic schools are first rate, producing solid students and as good as schools ever were. No surprise, as most wealthy people grew up valuing top flight education and will be damned if their kids don't recieve same. No doubt about it, my grandchildren will be going to prep school. My daughter should have. On the other extreme are Christian Acadamy-type schools. These are little havens of stupidity, fostering an education quality akin to Madrassas in the Islamic world, where questioning is replaced by absolute acceptance. In the Southern US, these are also havens of white only racial and ethnic separation, also bad for development of youth.

Finally.....what we now have in the US is a system akin to England's, wherein the best education is reserved only for the wealthy, and the rest be damned. As I stated in the earlier post, I really don't buy that this outcome was any planned thing, but as with our political woes, a stupid and uninvolved populace let it happen. Damned shame, actually, as it will be the ticket to a very diminished future status for the US.

[Pudfark]

Well done Slick
Very well done.

I am in general agreement with your observations.
A couple of them were a little "prickly"...but, reasonably accurate.

Factor in? (Public Schools Only)
"Social Promotions"
"Grading on a curve"
"Teachers Cheating on state mandated tests"
"Lack of discipline"

What I have observed over the years?
A lot of people packing paper "degrees"...
Degrees, that they obtained/bought, certainly not earned.
It used to be a joke, in Houston, Tx....
If you had a degree from Texas Southern University?
You had a seventh grade education....for sure.

It seems our society (USA) has come to value the "paper" and
not the education that it is supposed to represent.

The advent of "on line" degrees has only exacerbated the situation.

I will further add this...
Anybody, under the age of 45, educated in public schools, in the U.S. ?
Did not receive, nor was it required, the quality of education, that was available to Slick or myself.

There is a huge difference in the person?
Who has bought an education?
Who has received an education?
Who has earned an education...
And my personal favorite?
Applied that education.

Great meal you served, Slick. I just felt, that a pinch of salt and a dash of pepper, to taste of course...was needed....

[callmeslick]

Factor in? (Public Schools Only)
"Social Promotions"
"Grading on a curve"
"Teachers Cheating on state mandated tests"
"Lack of discipline"

most of which, when you think of it, stems from the 'no losers or winners' idea, coupled with no parental emphasis or interest in education. Heck, in my public school, every kid with half a brain was EXPECTED to go to college or into business. Every one. There was no need for mandated test standards. Discipline was what you came home to if you fecked up in school, and the other two items come straight from the thing about not letting any kid feel bad about him or herself.

What I have observed over the years?
A lot of people packing paper "degrees"...
Degrees, that they obtained/bought, certainly not earned.
It used to be a joke, in Houston, Tx....
If you had a degree from Texas Southern University?
You had a seventh grade education....for sure.

I can't speak to TSU, but my observation WAS different. Up through the mid-80's, if you got a college degree, you got a well-rounded education that emphasized critical thinking. That was true from most all colleges and universities, from Harvard down to traditionally Black Colleges to State schools. That has all changed in the past 25 years. Standards of admission have been lessened(hell, they wouldn't be able to keep enrollment up, what with the dreck emerging from high schools), coursework has become far too specific to a given job, and critical thinking has been a lost art.

It seems our society (USA) has come to value the "paper" and
not the education that it is supposed to represent.

ask most of us out in the professional work world, and we will tell you that we have very little value for that paper......unless it comes from one of the remaining top-shelf schools. And, make no mistake, there are some places that still do the job right. However, those places take only the cream of the crop and cost a ton of money, so their products are generally well-off kids from monied families. In other words, you have an educational system that further entrenches a nation in which the rich get richer and the rest of the folks are sinking fast.

I agree with your observation that those under 45 got the short end of the educational stick. The sad thing is that not only will they suffer, the nation will lose it's edge because of that fact.

[nicolas10]

I can't disagree with what you both said, however I think you guys are being naive to think that this situation hasn't been, well if not premeditated, at least encouraged.

Nic

[Pudfark]

I can't disagree with what you both said, however I think you guys are being naive to think that this situation hasn't been, well if not premeditated, at least encouraged.

Nic

I'll take the hit for that comment...
Nic, I am in total agreement with your quote above.
I said this earlier... "No, nic, I don't disagree with that. The revelation is that your question was not asked 35 years ago, when it actually began. We are now, here, going into the third, arguably the fourth generation here in the U.S."

It really did begin way back then in the U.S.
Folks here just were not aware of it...as it was
phased in slowly...Now, it is very apparent to all and
"transparent" to the lesser educated...

Your assessment of this problem/situation is spot on and commendable.

Old Pudfark sez: " If it feels like ya got a rock in yer shoe....You probably do... "

[nicolas10]

So it started 35 years ago?

I'm 35. Needless to say I'm pissed off

Nic