someone thinking about a real issue.....

[Pudfark]

the type of energy you are pushing is four times more expensive than what we currently use.

and its only getting more expensive to get started, all the time

the value will be in the long run with reduced manufacturing, maintenance, and administration costs, not to mention a fraction of released pollutants, and thats only for raw manufacturing, actal operation yields negligble to no waste product

Further, the infrastructure (electrical grid) in this country will not be able to handle that much electricity.... It would cost a few trillion bucks, just to sort out the infrastructure"

high time you set about improving it anyhow, again, at least in light of ever-increasing costs

you arent likely to recall the 03 blackout due to region, but that was in large part due to an already-obsolete (or obsolescent, at best) national energy grid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Blackout_of_2003

"New Mexico governor Bill Richardson, who formerly headed the Department of Energy, in a live television interview 2 hours into the blackout characterized the United States as "a superpower with a third-world electricity grid." In Europe, this statement was published accompanied with comparisons highlighting the tighter, safer and better interconnected European electricity network (though it would suffer a similar blackout six weeks later)."

bear in mind, the later euro blackout was due to storms that could have affected any energy grid...the US/Kan blackout was too much demand from an inadequate grid

"In the ensuing days, critics focused on the role of electricity market deregulation for the inadequate state of the electric power transmission grid, claiming that deregulation laws and electricity market mechanisms have failed to provide market participants with sufficient incentives to construct new transmission lines and maintain system security"




so. take a hit now, and support a future that promises to deliver your partial needs at least, with low enviro impact, in a self-sustaining industry that has plenty of export potential

or just cheap out now and continue with oil as major energy source, and dont complain in 40 years when you guys are buying even more Kanadian power, and even importing from places unthinkable today

smart.










nuclear is an option that should be excercised of course, however it also has its own "vices", although nothing major or insurmountable, but is only a component of a more effecient, cheaper, integrated power grid that includes several other viable non-fossil-fuel solutions. this includes retaining a small portion of oil/coal firing plants of a higher-than-current technology

Daii, how many power lines and windmills have you put up for the eskimo's ???

so. take a hit now, and support a future that promises to deliver your partial needs at least, with low enviro impact, in a self-sustaining industry that has plenty of export potential

or just cheap out now and continue with oil as major energy source, and dont complain in 40 years when you guys are buying even more Kanadian power, and even importing from places unthinkable today

Daii, you need to take your own advice and spend your own money on your own problems.....and go hug a polar bear...

[callmeslick]

Slick, what is it you don't understand about the poorer folks in this country....now, especially now...they can't afford your "clean dream"....what you are not pointing out is this, the type of energy you are pushing is four times more expensive than what we currently use.

although tempted to take Nuf's advice, I'll respond. If we don't start down that path we will:
1)have one hell of a lot more poor people, real soon.
2)have virtually zero industry within a generation in this nation.

Further, the infrastructure (electrical grid) in this country will not be able to handle that much electricity....what's the deal Slick, did you buy a bunch of that "dreamer stock"? It would cost a few trillion bucks, just to sort out the infrastructure, not to mention, all the hot air it would take....to make the "clean dream" come true.......

nonsense, the infrastructure is already a high-priority in very active progress nationwide. It has to be, as our electric grid is freaking obsolete. By the time alternatives come on line we'll be fine. Also, replacing petroleum sources doesn't necessarily mean a huge increase in domestic electricity production, just less dependence on the Middle East to generate it. Finally, the proposed bill(s) and what I am urging go far beyond tree-hugging sources, we should be actively working to ramp up clean coal, solar, wind, hydro and nuclear. It is purely a matter of national interest, and long-term planning. At present all of them, save solar, present some sort of risky drawbacks. We have to work on those, and, at the same time, accept certain levels of risk inherent in any energy source. This isn't about 'dreaming', it's about sound, rational planning for the future. Something, judging simply by what you have written in this thread, you don't care about.

[callmeslick]

edumacate urselfs then, this has been going on for some time over a good chunk of the planet, with minimal if any impact of wildlife.

well, the area being considered in Virginuia is a major migratory route. I'd prefer the windfarm to a bunch of deepwater oil rigs, but, like I said, I have some concerns. Still, most all of what you wrote is very sound thinking. If we(and, I mean US and Canada) don't get more involved, we will be left behind(and WAY behind) economically, in the coming decades. Coupled with a loss of industry, decline in educational values of the population,and the cost of the petroleum we've clung to, it could get real ugly.

[Daiichidoku]

Daii, how many power lines and windmills have you put up for the eskimo's ???

Daii, you need to take your own advice and spend your own money on your own problems.....and go hug a polar bear...

what part of this

i only wish kanada would get going on it more than we have

did you not understand?

if you had, you would not have needed write this nonsense

but you knew that

[callmeslick]

did you not understand?

does he ever?

[Wullie]

efficient? Pretty much so. Cheap? Not really. The problem is, as the author stated, that we have to start moving in that direction. Oil will run out. The numbers make that a given, sooner than most think. If we don't start perfecting the alternatives, someone else will.....likely China or India.

Maybe I should have elaborated and said how efficient are they at turning wind into money. If the systems can't do that, they're doomed.

Running out of oil? It was blowing out of the gulf floor at an alarming rate.

BTW, oil is still being created on this planet. All that stuff about it being dead dinosaurs and shit is pure BS. It's probably paraded about with large banners by the very SOB's that are selling it to justify the screwing we continue to take from them.

The enviro-tards did us a great favor with ethanol too. What a fucking joke that has turned out to be.

New Mexico governor Bill Richardson, who formerly headed the Department of Energy, in a live television interview 2 hours into the blackout characterized the United States as "a superpower with a third-world electricity grid." In Europe, this statement was published accompanied with comparisons highlighting the tighter, safer and better interconnected European electricity network (though it would suffer a similar blackout six weeks later).

Ever been to New Mexico? THE LAND OF dis-ENCHANTMENT? It's a fairy land of rich white yuppie/old hippie environmentalists. It's also land of dirt poor native Americans sucked into a life on the government tit on the "REZ". I bet ol' Bill is far more concerned with the old hippies than he is the rest of the people in state. He's a piss poor Democrat too, because he cut the income tax in his state and gave tax incentives to business. He's not towing the party line.

[Pudfark]

the infrastructure is already a high-priority in very active progress nationwide. It has to be, as our electric grid is freaking obsolete. By the time alternatives come on line we'll be fine. Also, replacing petroleum sources doesn't necessarily mean a huge increase in domestic electricity production, just less dependence on the Middle East to generate it. Finally, the proposed bill(s) and what I am urging go far beyond tree-hugging sources, we should be actively working to ramp up clean coal, solar, wind, hydro and nuclear. It is purely a matter of national interest, and long-term planning. At present all of them, save solar, present some sort of risky drawbacks. We have to work on those, and, at the same time, accept certain levels of risk inherent in any energy source. This isn't about 'dreaming', it's about sound, rational planning for the future. Something, judging simply by what you have written in this thread, you don't care about.

I agree it is obsolete...Where is all this work going on and who is funding it? It damn sure ain't the power companies/utilities.

Is that the order (priority) we should make to have clean energy and more of it? Do you care how much it costs ?

Ya ever hear of a hail storm? Where ya gonna put them solar panels? In a basement?

Sound rational planning? Where? By that do you mean, the most expensive to manufacture, least durable and with the highest cost per KWH ? How is that going to help our industry? How is that gonna help the poor folks now? How about you invest a few minutes to substantiate your "sound rational planning" and see what the cost per KWH is for each type of electricity generating method that you have proposed?

Old Pudfark sez: " I'd bet....you'll be shocked "

[Pudfark]

Now Slick, don't go all "nuclear" on me....but poor folks, business and the unemployed can't afford your clean energy plan....although, China is laughing it's ass off...as they don't give a damn about clean energy for themselves...only for the U.S. Why? We will be giving them our remaining share of the world wide market.....

Old Pudfark sez: " Prosperity through Deficit.....Not "

[callmeslick]

.

Running out of oil? It was blowing out of the gulf floor at an alarming rate.

it's clear, Wullie, that you have no concept of how much oil the US goes through per day. Look it up, and then look at likely reserves.

[HappyHappy]

Danm, you Demos love the oil subject to push your leftist agenda.

it's a rare thing for me to agree with Callmesick, so lets start with that.

We ARE in fact running out of oil.
Oil is a fossil fuel and though it's being made every day
by natural processes it takes far to long to get the oil
to where we can use it. The sea bed muck being
buried today will be usable as oil in a few million years.

As to the rate that we are running out?
That is a hot debate. At issue is the percentage
that can be extracted. We are doing better than 30 years ago but
the number is around 10%. Not to good eh?

The huge reserves in the deep gulf of Mexico are indeed huge.
If we tap the gulf we could indeed stop importing oil.
But that would be silly. It is better to run the others out of oil first.

I believe there is no reason for panic. Industry is slowly finding
real alternatives to mineral fossil fuels.

Where CallmeSICK and I completely disagree is that the goverment
need not get involved. The fuel industry wants to stay in the game
and will eventually dive into the bio fuel thing.

Time to reject the Al Gores of the world and not panic.

Conservation, nuclear energy and bio fuels will do the job.

Want to panic?
World population is at a unsustainable level and we are breeding like mice.
Want to do the world a favor?
Enforce a one child policy like China does WORLD WIDE.
Forced sterialisation after one birth.
Even if we could all agree to that the world population will double over the next 30 years.

You Demos like forcing your will on others, grab on to this issue if you dare.

Wake up people, oil is not the biggest problem, hyper overpopulation is the big issue.


HH