Terrorist attack?

[Reservoir_Dog]

another look at the matter, and this is VERY much worth pondering:

This is why I tend to shy away from major western news sources. They mostly suffer from tunnel vision, a quest for ratings, and the almighty advertising dollar.

I much prefer BBC, PBS, CSPAN and Reuters. The Real News and The Independent are also rather good.

[Darkhorse]

Slick, understand that I did not make my last two post to support the lunatic fringe here and in the GOP or that I am anti-Muslim. Most authors that write about the inner workings of Islam would appear to have an ax to grind. My first post came from an article by Raymond Ibrahim http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war, a respected expert in the field. He was one of the many lecturers that I had when I attended the Army War Collage's Center for Strategic Leadership course. The point that I was attempting to make was that Islam is not what it appears to be to most westerners looking at it from the outside. We need to move forward carefully with this.
The last 5 years of my military service I was posted as a Battalion Senior Operations NCO in a forward operating combat division, one of my many duties was to publish operation orders and battle plans and a comprehensive threat assessment analysis was a big part of that. In order the do that comprehensive threat assessment you had to understand the enemy and to understand the enemy you need to learn everything about him and his culture.
I have spent time in Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkey, Sinai, Somalia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. I have seen Taqiyya used many time in many situations. Knowing what I know and have seen I am telling you, we need to move forward carefully with this!

[HappyHappy]

Pudster, Callmeshit is waiting for the next up-dates in his
Democratic talking points. The old one is to pooh pooh any
perceived Islamic threat so that people will feel guilty in
excluding Syrian refugees from coming to the US.

There will be a new one. But it will be little different.
Obama is a Muzzie Communist and wants his brothers
and sisters here, even if they kill a few Americans.

Callmeshit is a minion incapable of forming a thought on his own.
His masters will dictate new orders for him, till then expect
more of the same.

[callmeslick]

Slick, understand that I did not make my last two post to support the lunatic fringe here and in the GOP or that I am anti-Muslim. Most authors that write about the inner workings of Islam would appear to have an ax to grind. My first post came from an article by Raymond Ibrahim http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war, a respected expert in the field. He was one of the many lecturers that I had when I attended the Army War Collage's Center for Strategic Leadership course. The point that I was attempting to make was that Islam is not what it appears to be to most westerners looking at it from the outside. We need to move forward carefully with this.

agreed, and I got your intent. My only real commentary, and the reason I did a bit of background is my contention that any sound understanding involves taking ALL commentary with a grain of salt and eye to the personal biases of the person reporting. One would hope that the War College(in Carlisle, PA, right?) faculty would be aware of this, and provide as diverse a range of opinions for those entrusted to represent the US in the Muslim world.

The last 5 years of my military service I was posted as a Battalion Senior Operations NCO in a forward operating combat division, one of my many duties was to publish operation orders and battle plans and a comprehensive threat assessment analysis was a big part of that. In order the do that comprehensive threat assessment you had to understand the enemy and to understand the enemy you need to learn everything about him and his culture.
I have spent time in Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkey, Sinai, Somalia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. I have seen Taqiyya used many time in many situations. Knowing what I know and have seen I am telling you, we need to move forward carefully with this!

your experience is both noble and valuable. So, let me ask you this: While I get 'move forward carefully', are you suggesting that significant numbers of US Muslims, most living here for decades, are participating in some sort of patient plot to take over the nation? I don't, and moreover, everything in our history says that the attempt would both fail and backfire horribly. How do you think the US should approach the whole issue of radicalization, terrorism and the like?

[Darkhorse]

One would hope that the War College(in Carlisle, PA, right?) faculty would be aware of this, and provide as diverse a range of opinions for those entrusted to represent the US in the Muslim world.

Yes, in Carlisle, PA. And yes the information presented to us was diverse.

So, let me ask you this: While I get 'move forward carefully', are you suggesting that significant numbers of US Muslims, most living here for decades, are participating in some sort of patient plot to take over the nation?

Most Muslims living here are just like you and I, wanting to live in peace and prosper. I am not suggesting a take over by them. What I am suggesting is that there are radicals living among them (Taqiyya), they are recruiting and being trained and financed by ISIS et al. As the number of Muslims grow so will the radicals and in the near future attacks like Europe is seeing will happen here.

How do you think the US should approach the whole issue of radicalization, terrorism and the like?

The radicalized side if Islam will never be eliminated, it is one of the cores to the system. The security that will be needed to keep the public safe is going to run head long into freedom/PC and create a problem but after some large scale attacks the public will realize that they will need to give up some freedoms in order to keep others. Security is a fickle bitch. Other than trying to stay ahead of the radicals I don't have much more to add to your question.

[callmeslick]

in order, as I came to them:
1.Asked about Carlisle, as I fish near the College in a creek called the LeTort that runs through town. Nasty but fun little trout stream.

2.Given the vastly superior economic position of Muslims in the US, compared to Europe, don't you think we provide FAR less incentive to radicalize, or even shelter those lurking in wait?

3.In my mind, much of Europe's problem is that they've done to Muslims what we've done to young black men: incarcerate and then sort of ignore things like education or jobs. Further, most of the issues of late clearly are NOT coming from folks waiting patiently, it comes from folks who are young, went to train and came back to the native country under orders to disrupt. Two things jump out from this that SEEM pertinent to the US. First, I think we have a far better handle on those travelling back and forth, from arrests we've made. Second, unless we change under pressure, we are a far more friendly place for Muslims to live because of our traditional tolerance.

4. Your suggestion that ANY(and I mean ANY) personal freedoms be given up for safety, as noted a couple hundred years ago, ensures that the US gets neither. Sometimes the cost of freedom is spurious attacks, but I hear few in Belgium calling for revokation of most personal freedoms, and theirs are FAR more extensive than ours. One hopes that the US shows the same resolve. One example, cited a lot this week, is that authorities(few in number, Belgium has less police for the whole nation that we have for NY City by a factor of 1/4)cannot execute a raid on a residence between 9 pm and 6 am. I can see tinkering with that one without affecting personal liberty, but as one who is EXTREMELY leery of the Patriot act, I don't wish to give up freedoms for the sake of fighting a fringe movement that likely won't last a generation and opening the gates to wholesale subjugation of the nation to, for example, Christian White People.

[Darkhorse]

in order, as I came to them:
1.Asked about Carlisle, as I fish near the College in a creek called the LeTort that runs through town. Nasty but fun little trout stream.

Unfortunately I did not have a chance to check out the area, I was in training ten hours a day six days a week with any remaining hours not sleeping studying the materials.

2.Given the vastly superior economic position of Muslims in the US, compared to Europe, don't you think we provide FAR less incentive to radicalize, or even shelter those lurking in wait?

It has been proven that economic position has little bearing on the radicalization process. http://www.meforum.org/5059/jihad-root-cause-myth.

3.In my mind, much of Europe's problem is that they've done to Muslims what we've done to young black men: incarcerate and then sort of ignore things like education or jobs. Further, most of the issues of late clearly are NOT coming from folks waiting patiently, it comes from folks who are young, went to train and came back to the native country under orders to disrupt. Two things jump out from this that SEEM pertinent to the US. First, I think we have a far better handle on those travelling back and forth, from arrests we've made. Second, unless we change under pressure, we are a far more friendly place for Muslims to live because of our traditional tolerance.

Yes Europe and America have different situations and it will slow down the problem but not stop it. We do have a handle on most of the legal traveling, it's the illegal travel we don't have handled. Unfortunately I believe our traditional tolerance will bite us in the ass on this one.

4. Your suggestion that ANY(and I mean ANY) personal freedoms be given up for safety, as noted a couple hundred years ago, ensures that the US gets neither. Sometimes the cost of freedom is spurious attacks, but I hear few in Belgium calling for revokation of most personal freedoms, and theirs are FAR more extensive than ours. One hopes that the US shows the same resolve. One example, cited a lot this week, is that authorities(few in number, Belgium has less police for the whole nation that we have for NY City by a factor of 1/4)cannot execute a raid on a residence between 9 pm and 6 am. I can see tinkering with that one without affecting personal liberty, but as one who is EXTREMELY leery of the Patriot act, I don't wish to give up freedoms for the sake of fighting a fringe movement that likely won't last a generation and opening the gates to wholesale subjugation of the nation to, for example, Christian White People.

I don't want to give up freedoms any more than you, like I said security is a fickle bitch. I do disagree with this "a fringe movement that likely won't last a generation" , this movement has been going strong since the 7th Century.
Slick I have a fair grasp on your progressive liberal social thinking and it will not work in this case. Educate yourself more on Islam, I don't believe you are seeing the whole picture.

[callmeslick]

[I don't want to give up freedoms any more than you, like I said security is a fickle bitch. I do disagree with this "a fringe movement that likely won't last a generation" , this movement has been going strong since the 7th Century.

no, it really has not. It may have EXISTED, but in the minority, and I'm not even sure I agree with the whole premise that there is a continuum. As for educating myself on Islam, I've been doing so since college(a LONG time ago), for a set of complicated reasons, mostly curiousity. What most Westerners miss is the massive levels of autonomous control individual groups and mosques have over interpretation of Islam. Islam doesn't have true 'denominations' like we see with Christianity. There are large scisms like Shia and Sunni and Bahai, but not really a hierarchy of bishops, etc. with a set doctrine. That makes for all sorts of odd offshoots, and ISIS is a recent version. We tend to equate them with Al Qaeda, but those two are completely different in objective. Al Q merely wanted 'infidels' out of Sunni lands, and a religious self-rule. The Muslim Brotherhood wants, by contrast, a Muslim dominated functional government, with more modernist operation. ISIS is a pure apocalyptic cult, based on doomsday theology adhered to by a VERY small minority of Muslims.

Slick I have a fair grasp on your progressive liberal social thinking and it will not work in this case. Educate yourself more on Islam, I don't believe you are seeing the whole picture.

I'm pretty sure NEITHER of us see the whole picture, but that is where discourse and exchange of ideas is valuable. You might have doubts about my 'progressive liberal' social thinking working here, but I have pretty firm belief that cutting back on our freedoms is a flat-out declaration of surrender.

As for my comment about 'a generation' regarding ISIS, I think you're now seeing the flurry of attacks upon Europe because trained fighters are being sent out of the region as a tactical diversion when things are going bad in the 'caliphate'. Of late, things are going pretty damned badly in Syria and Iraq, so the upswing in European attacks doesn't really surprise me.....and, from all I've gleaned in the past two days, it didn't surprise too many people in Europe, either. As opposed to that link Pud posted with a number of 400, I'm hearing that between 2000 and 4500 trained individuals are loose in Europe. many of them allowed to go into hiding despite blatant warnings by Syria or Turkey. That will prove a huge issue for Europe, but the US is relatively isolated from most of that. It seems at least one target in Brussels was an attempt to get at what few Americans they could target, at the airport.

[callmeslick]

you mention, by the way, DH, that the US '.....don't have a handle on illegal travel'. Do you have any specific reason to say this? I ask, because I can't recall any threat that has been made public that involved illegal or even non-commercial travel.

Oh, and thanks for providing some intellectual meat to chew on. Such is a rarity on this board, so you have no idea how valued your commentary is.

[callmeslick]

another observation(or three), DH, to toss at you. Above, to refute the economic hardship angle, you cite Bin Laden, Al Atta, Reid, as affluent terrorists. Yet, that speaks to MY point that this isn't one continuous movement, but a series of very distinct movements in the Muslim world. Al Q was a more cerebral group, with specific demands and goals. The leaders were businessmen, doctors, and the like. ISIS, as I pointed out, is another beast. They are seeking the end of the world, with a very specific theological blueprint as to how it happens(akin to how some Christians have a kind of roadmap of how the end of days will unfold, even though the Bible clearly states that you will not know). This is why they do things to try and bring the fight back to the Syria/Iraq region while drawing in far flung nations to the overall fray. It is also why they target, predominantly MUSLIMS, as I tried to point out above in a graphic. Tonight, we have this:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/n ... 28691.html
given your scenario, which would seem to be that what we are seeing is a mere continuum of Muslim expansion/conversion efforts of the past 14 centuries, why are they targetting muslims, muslim holy sites, every bit as much as they do Western targets?
Also, given that one has to seek out al Jazeera or other sources to even find out much about the very regular attacks upon urban centers throughout Africa and the Middle East, does that suggest our press(and maybe our leaders) wish us to see ISIS as focused on harming the West, when the real goal is ending the world through violent conflict? If so, why?