A Complete Waste of Space

the above, from Mr.Cut and Paste! Hilarious!

Oh, and Darkhorse.......ya see my point?

callmeslick wrote:but, if, by economic sanctions, he tanks his own struggling economy(and it is ALREADY suffering from two-week old sanctions of a weak nature), did he 'get away' with anything?

I may be giving Putin more that he deserves here. He knew the sanctions would be coming and has prepared for them. Most of Western Europe doesn’t have the balls to stand up to him. Hell, the French are selling the Russians a helicopter carrier in the middle of all this! He has more irons in the fire ready to use when the time comes. Like I said I may be giving him too much but you are selling him short.

that is exactly the crew that espoused the sort of thinking you initially suggested.

Only the part where they needed bitch slapped to get them back in line with the rest of the world not the removal of their government and Nation building! Spending ten years of money and blood trying to do something that can never be done is just stupid!

I disagree to some extent. First off, the primary point of power in a Defense Department is, well, DEFENSE. That does not, to my mind, bring any obligation towards 'holding the world accountable', unless we are directly threatened.

For most countries around the world the military is for defense of that countries boarders and sovereignty, for America it is for the defense of the free world. If the power base is not going to keep things together who is? Russia? China? The EU ? A world economy will not survive without iron backing it up! It ceases to amaze me when people quote historical references to things happening today but fail to see lessons learned at the same time!

In Iraq, we were clearly not. Afghanistan can be seen as a needed message to send, we just did it by coupling sending the message with attempting to re-make a culture and society we didn't understand. Russian threats to return to the old Soviet bloc DO, to my mind, present a potential threat to our nation, in the same way that German annexation ultimately did. Those figures on paper, to me, reflect the scale of our 'defense' operations. Nothing more.

I am mostly in agreement here, Iraq did need a good bitch slapping but not removing the government. I as I said not just the defense of the USA but all free men!

you're probably right about that last bit(another subject), but I'll ask you this: Would a return to a military draft address that? I think the move to an all-volunteer force is one of the primary drivers of the effect you note (and with which I agree, to some extent, as it relates to global/military affairs).

The draft should only be used in extreme cases! The all-volunteer force is not what I am referring to, I see progressive humanism as the effect I noted.

DH, yer clarity is refreshing and your comments, spot on. Thanks

interesting stuff, DH.....

I may be giving Putin more that he deserves here. He knew the sanctions would be coming and has prepared for them. Most of Western Europe doesn’t have the balls to stand up to him. Hell, the French are selling the Russians a helicopter carrier in the middle of all this! He has more irons in the fire ready to use when the time comes. Like I said I may be giving him too much but you are selling him short.

the thing about Putin is that he is only in power at the grace of a handful of very rich men, and if those men suddenly get not-so-rich, it will be interesting to see what happens. Right now, the Russian stock market is down, by nearly 25%, since this little Crimean adventure started.

For most countries around the world the military is for defense of that countries boarders and sovereignty, for America it is for the defense of the free world.

I disagree.....those days ought to be over. Long over. I see your point about some power needed to maintain a world economy, but that power has to be shared for such an economy to work, between ALL players. Thus, yes, China has a role, so does India, Japan, the EU, etc. It long ago should have ceased being our role and financial burden to maintain 'order'. As one can see plainly, the US has gotten VERY little respect for doing so thus far, as most of the planet regards us as a meddlesome bully.

The all-volunteer force is not what I am referring to, I see progressive humanism as the effect I noted.

here, I have to disagree.......progressive humanism(whatever that jumble of verbiage really means.....kinda sounds like one of those right-wing perjoritives) did not cause the disengagement of the US public. When we had a drafted force, the public, as a whole, CARED. They cared enough for massive shared sacrifice in WWII, they cared enough to pay attention to Vietnam and it's lack of a plan. I read, recently, that Iraq and Afghanistan troop involvement was less than 1/2 of 1% of our population, and extending to close friends and family, it was estimated that maybe 2% had any vested interest. Thus, you get a lot of mealy mouthed platitudes about caring for and about our 'troops', and proud 'hero' bullshit, but with it involving someone else's farmily. Further, it creates a separate 'military class' that feels both separated from and more entitled than the general public. Neither is healthy for the long-term defense of our nation.


Bottom line comment: while I feel that a global economy is important in our modern world, I don't feel that it is the US obligation to police it alone. At the same time, we're going to NEVER get back to the sense of national unity and sense of purpose in military/world affairs until the risk of death and sense of sacrifice is spread far wider through our population.

I disagree totally with what you stated Slick.
People don't get along like that...they never have.....ever.

You're "Utopian" theories are dangerous...History is replete/complete with that thinking and the results of it. Never been successful ever.

Smart folks who have a home, buy a "plunger". Especially, when their 6'7 tall son in law is visiting for a week. Dumb folks buy a bucket and a theory.

callmeslick wrote:interesting stuff, DH.....

the thing about Putin is that he is only in power at the grace of a handful of very rich men, and if those men suddenly get not-so-rich, it will be interesting to see what happens. Right now, the Russian stock market is down, by nearly 25%, since this little Crimean adventure started.

Those very rich men are willing to spend a little to make a lot, Russia holds a large part of Europe hostage with the need for energy and Putin is holding other cards close to the vest. (I am not sure what they are yet).

I disagree.....those days ought to be over. Long over. I see your point about some power needed to maintain a world economy, but that power has to be shared for such an economy to work, between ALL players. Thus, yes, China has a role, so does India, Japan, the EU, etc. It long ago should have ceased being our role and financial burden to maintain 'order'. As one can see plainly, the US has gotten VERY little respect for doing so thus far, as most of the planet regards us as a meddlesome bully.

You need to remove the rose colored glasses (I bet they have a white frame ). Yea they “ought to be over. Long over”, it will never happen. Remember we a dealing with people here! Come back to reality Slick, if we are going to start shearing pipe dreams I have a few for you.
We have been a meddlesome bully many times, some of it warranted some not, there will be few that show respect but who will they call for when the shit hits the fan?

here, I have to disagree.......progressive humanism(whatever that jumble of verbiage really means.....kinda sounds like one of those right-wing perjoritives) did not cause the disengagement of the US public.

http://www.progressivehumanism.com/prog ... g-of-life/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_humanist
Well Slick, it is my opinion, we are so far apart on this subject pursuing it will only put you and HH close and holding hands and I do not want to do that to you.

When we had a drafted force, the public, as a whole, CARED. They cared enough for massive shared sacrifice in WWII, they cared enough to pay attention to Vietnam and it's lack of a plan. I read, recently, that Iraq and Afghanistan troop involvement was less than 1/2 of 1% of our population, and extending to close friends and family, it was estimated that maybe 2% had any vested interest. Thus, you get a lot of mealy mouthed platitudes about caring for and about our 'troops', and proud 'hero' bullshit, but with it involving someone else's farmily. Further, it creates a separate 'military class' that feels both separated from and more entitled than the general public. Neither is healthy for the long-term defense of our nation.

I will borrow from you....”.kinda sounds like one of those left-wing pejoratives”(I fixed the spelling of the word for you )
Having skin in the game should add to patriotism not be the sole or a major reason for it! If that is what it takes for any American to have patriotism in my eyes they are not an American!

A professional military needs and should have its own class with special entitlements. Do an August NTC rotation then come back and look me in the face to tell me they are not a class of their own, and that is only a training exercise and does not include what the Soldier’s family has to deal with!

A little info on volunteer vs draft:
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_brief ... ndex1.html
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/Conscription.html

Bottom line comment: while I feel that a global economy is important in our modern world, I don't feel that it is the US obligation to police it alone. At the same time, we're going to NEVER get back to the sense of national unity and sense of purpose in military/world affairs until the risk of death and sense of sacrifice is spread far wider through our population.

[/quote]
I agree, we have been trying to make this a reality since before WWI!

Darkhorse wrote:Well Slick, it is my opinion, we are so far apart on this subject pursuing it will only put you and HH close and holding hands and I do not want to do that to you.

the first part, very true. The second part? Possibly the funniest thing I've read on here in some time!

Having skin in the game should add to patriotism not be the sole or a major reason for it! If that is what it takes for any American to have patriotism in my eyes they are not an American!

patriotism is well and good, but one has to beware the extension into Nationalism, which has proven to be possibly the most dangerous driver of human behavior in history(which sort of gets us back to Putin's way of controlling power).

A professional military needs and should have its own class with special entitlements.

strongly disagree. That is PRECISELY what the Founding Fathers sought to NEVER have. Which, given their more recent experience with suffering at the hands of a 'professional military' was why they put a provision for civilian leadership(President as commander in chief) into the Constitution.

Do an August NTC rotation then come back and look me in the face to tell me they are not a class of their own, and that is only a training exercise and does not include what the Soldier’s family has to deal with!

soldiers should be citizens first, soldiers second. That, my friend, is the beauty of the American way of doing things. No, they deserve respect for service, but ought NEVER be seen as a 'class of their own'. To do so is, frankly, a dangerous perversion.

Well Slick it has been interesting, I understand that debating is a sport of yours (bet you also enjoy ping-pong ) but for me because we are so far apart with little in common it just gives me a headache. I am just a poor white middle class christian farm boy and I know my place in this society that has been created. I have my vision of what America should be (was very close to it at one time). I love my country but have very little faith in it moving in a direction that is not self destructive. As a student of history it angers me to watch the "leaders" of this country put on their blinders and march over the same cliff many others have in the past. With that said, see ya around!

Darkhorse wrote:Well Slick it has been interesting, I understand that debating is a sport of yours (bet you also enjoy ping-pong ) but for me because we are so far apart with little in common it just gives me a headache. I am just a poor white middle class christian farm boy and I know my place in this society that has been created. I have my vision of what America should be (was very close to it at one time). I love my country but have very little faith in it moving in a direction that is not self destructive. As a student of history it angers me to watch the "leaders" of this country put on their blinders and march over the same cliff many others have in the past. With that said, see ya around!

That's one of the most interesting posts I've read in here in a long time.
You're a smart guy, Darkhorse. I've always believed that. I've never questioned it.
But why do you give up so easily? And no, I'm not talking about your repartee with Slick.
I'm talking about giving up on your country. I'm talking about accepting a "station" in life.
Honestly, you didn't seem like that type to me.

I have not given up on my country, just see the writing on the wall. I see nothing wrong with accepting a station in life, I like where I am at. I never wanted to be rich, famous or highly regarded by the masses. I fulfilled my dream in life. My bucket list was complete before my 30th birthday (long before the term was coined)!