A Complete Waste of Space

HappyHappy wrote:We know death is an end.

Jesus wrote:I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Don't you think that you owe it to yourself to investigate this until there is no doubt in your mind which one is a lie?

HappyHappy wrote:Since you are so convinced there is a God, show me!

I can do that if you look at what I show you.

HappyHappy wrote:We know life needed no God to start it.

I will start with your quote above.

Lets look at some scientific evidence:

One important piece of evidence is the trajectory and speed of stars observed in the universe. Since light emitted from an object that is moving exhibits a light frequency shift, scientists can determine the trajectory and speed of the stars in the universe by this shift. When they project these calculated trajectories and speeds backwards in time, they find that they converge on a single point at a specific time estimated to be about 14 billion years ago. Scientists refer to this as the Big Bang. Scientists are at a loss to explain what happened or what existed before the Big Bang. But this observation has lead them to believe that this is when time began.
Corroborating evidence that the universe had a beginning comes from the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics. The First Law of Thermodynamics, often called the Law of Conservation, reveals that our universe is a closed system, this means that no new energy is being created, or destroyed, in the universe. This law confirms that the universe cannot be creating itself.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics, referred to as the Law of Decay, reveals that this energy is actually decreasing or tending toward disorder. It is becoming less useful as time goes on. It is like a clock that is winding down.
The First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics taken together reveal that there must have been a beginning to the universe. Since the clock (universe) is winding down, and energy is constant, we can analytically wind the universe back up to arrive at a beginning when the total energy was all in its useful state.
So the two Laws of Thermodynamics taken together reveal that the universe had a beginning, and that the source of its creation had to be outside of time and the universe itself.
Scientifically we know that every event we observe has a cause. But when we see scientific evidence that the universe had to have a creative source outside itself and outside of time, and that the Big Bang provides evidence that points to a beginning of the universe, then we know there must be a great uncaused Cause.

Observed design or order in the universe.
Scientists have discovered more than eight hundred parameters that have to be finely tuned in order for the universe to function and support life. Some examples are provided below:
Gravity:
- If the source of gravity was any stronger, the universe would collapse on itself.
- If the source of gravity was any weaker, the universe would drift apart. It would not hold together.
Oxygen content of our atmosphere:
- If the oxygen content of our atmosphere was any greater, plants would burn up too easily. Plant life would not exist
- If the oxygen content of our atmosphere was any less, animals would not have enough to breathe. Animal life would not exist.
The axial tilt of the earth in its orbit around the sun:
- If the tilt of the earth was any more or any less, the earth’s surface temperature variation would be too great to sustain life.
The electromagnetic force:
- If the magnetic field were any greater, electromagnetic storms would be too great to sustain life.
- If the magnetic field were any less, the ozone shield would be too great for life to exist.
The distance of the moon to the earth:
- If the moon were any closer to the earth, tidal waves would be too great to support life.
- If the moon were any further from the earth, the tidal waves would not be strong enough to perform their cleansing action around the shore lines and the oceans would become stale and stagnant. Life could not exist.
If any of these parameters were off slightly one way or the other from what they are, the universe would either not exist or would not function to support life.
Order is evidence of an intelligent Designer. A blind force that neither perceives nor rationally understands what is required to support life could explain the precision in hundreds of parameters that govern our universe. When we examine Mount Everest, we know it has been shaped through natural processes such as wind, rain, temperature and geological upheaval. But, when we examine Mount Rushmore, we know an intelligent being formed the shapes of former U.S. presidents in accordance with a design. Therefore, we use criteria to determine when something is the result of natural formation or the result of an intelligent designer. The same criteria are used by archaeologists or scientists searching for intelligent life on earth or in the universe.
This precise order is abundant throughout the universe. We know that the universe is not creating this order since the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics reveal that order is decreasing and the universe is a closed system (no new energy is being created in the universe). Therefore there has to be a source outside of the universe dictating the order we find (Colossians 1:16-17). Order is too pervasive throughout the universe to be a random accident. And the order we find is complementary, that is each parameter is set exactly where it needs to be to support life and all of the parameters complement each other.
To believe that the order we observe is a random accident constitutes an unreasonable faith in blind chance against impossible odds. No one would believe that Mount Rushmore was shaped through the years by natural processes. Likewise, the order in the universe reveals that an intelligent Designer is behind its creation.

Observed irreducible complexity.
Darwin stated that if the smallest particles that make up life turned out to be complex rather than simple in nature, then his theory of evolution would be proven false. Scientific evidence available today shows that to be the case. Michael Behe, in his book Darwin’s Black Box, shows us that the microscopic part of our universe is not only extremely complex, but irreducibly so.
Take an eye for instance, either animal or human. The eye is irreducibly complex. By that we mean that the eye is a system of parts, each with a critical function. The eye will not work unless all of the critical functions are in place and operating properly. Therefore, there is no Darwinian process that can explain how such complexity evolved in a step by step process. Based on Darwin’s theory of survival of the fittest, there would have to be some advantage apparent at each step in order for those with the advantage to out survive the ones without the advantage. But in an irreducibly complex system, there is no advantage until all parts of the complex system are in place and in full working order. Therefore a Darwinian process cannot create what we observe in nature.
Similar degrees of complexity have been found in living cells, whether plant, animal or human. What we’ve learned since Darwin’s time is that a living cell is a miniature factory with many moving parts, each part required to be in place and functioning for the cell to perform its role in life. Living cells are very complex systems with many critical parts that must perform specific critical functions at the right time in order for the organism to live. There is no Darwinian process that can create this complexity.
Scientifically (through observation or repeatable experiment) we know of only one source for such irreducible complexity, intelligent design. And we find multitudes of irreducibly complex systems in the universe that are required to support life. To believe that random blind chance created all these irreducible complexity systems that support life goes beyond reason and certainly beyond science. It requires blind faith in random chance against tremendous odds.

Information inherent in living things.
Another scientific discovery revealing an intelligent design in the universe is the DNA molecule. What scientists have discovered is that there are reams of data in the DNA molecule. This information is what determines if a living thing will be a plant, animal or human. It also determines what kind of a plant, animal or human the living thing is. In fact, the information is so specific that it determines a unique plant, animal or human. There are no two of any living thing that are exactly alike.
There is no Darwinian process that can explain where this information came from. Some scientists who have accepted evolution as fact (by faith, not proof) have tried to claim that there must be some unknown affinity in the universe for the molecules to form themselves as they do. They refer to it as unknown laws of self organization. But this leaves them with another problem of explaining where those assumed laws for organization come from, not to mention the matter that makes up the molecules themselves. The fact of the matter is, what we know from experience is that if there is a law, there is a law-giver who can enforce the law. This is essentially what intelligent design is.
We do observe self organizing processes in nature, for instance ice crystals. But what we observe scientifically about these processes is that they form structures that replicate themselves in accordance with an inherent organizational plan. Ice crystals, for instance, do not contain information, they merely form unique structures based on laws that govern molecular behavior. The letters on a page can be arranged to provide information. But if they are strung together in a replicating form we just get something like “and and and”. There is no information that develops. And we are left with the question of where the organizing processes came from in light of the Second Law of Thermodynamics which reveals that order is decreasing, not increasing.
What we find in the DNA molecule is that, just like in a novel, the letters are uniquely arranged to provide a specific message (provide information). From what we observe and experience, information always comes from intelligence. There can be no other source for a Shakespeare play than the mind of Shakespeare. No Shakespeare play ever evolved on its own.


Consciousness.
Evolutionists have no viable explanation for consciousness. Some have claimed that computers will someday be developed so that they can take on a consciousness. This is certainly not scientific, it is merely an assertion (a belief). Besides, this argument is flawed. Whatever computers eventually become, it will be clear that they were created by intelligence - someone will write their code and develop the hardware platforms they operate on.
When someone dies, their body is still there but something is observably missing. Consciousness consists of sensations, thoughts, emotions, desires, beliefs and self will. These are the things that make us alive and aware. This is what is missing when someone dies.
The question is, where did the reality of consciousness come from? It is difficult, even impossible to imagine that these things evolved through materialistic processes. The reality of consciousness transcends the material world.
The Bible tells us that God breathed into us a living spirit. To believe that consciousness evolved through inanimate materialistic processes is unreasonable, It requires blind faith in random chance against impossible odds.

Just a note DarkHorse....you have to remember HappyHappy evolved from a single cell virus. You gave him WAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION. Anything more than a sentence or two ...maybe a single paragraph is about all his simple single celled mind can handle at one time.

You evolved to your enviorment.
The fact that your here is owed to the chance
location of the Earth and the relitive conditions here.
No supreme being and santaclaus myth needed.
As i see it the natural pheneomina you describe
is a the elements following the rules of physics, nothing more.
The God Myth is a drug to keep you happy.
You will never die, you have imortality.
Paradise awaits believers.

You feel good believing that fairy tale?
Cool, then believe it.
I know better.
science has the answer.

RS_Blooddrive is an idiot.

HH

DH, I like you, and agree that Happy is an arrogant, immature jerk. However, as someone trained in the sciences, what you presented above is full of half-truths, misunderstanding of scientific laws and in general, could be ripped to shreds....easily.

A couple key points-
1. The whole Thermodynamics thing about randomness only applies to the entire system, which is vast.
It is commonly seen where small parts of the whole tend to high complexity, offset by slight increases
in randomness elsewhere. It has been documented and observed thoroughly. What you describe as
'having' to be divine in origin, is easily seen as physics doing it's thing.

2. As for the serendipity of chemistry that makes our planet sustain life, once again, probability and
simple statistics would indicate that to be a highly likely occurance, given the number of stars and
planets out there. In fact, it is quite likely that two or three other systems share a similar type of life.
Moreover, it is likely that our carbon/oxygen/nitrogen based format isn't the only thing out there that
could be described as 'living.

I won't bore you with the mathematics behind the ways DNA could develop complexity over the course
of a few hundred million years, but trust me, it's not all that magical, nor divinely inspired, either. As I said,
any competent scientist could take your treatise above apart, virtually line by line. Yet, some scientists
are still religious....why? Because, knowing the process doesn't preclude a start to the whole thing coming from some source outside our knowledge, and further, no one has explained to date where matter came from in the first place. So there is still room for rational belief in a God or Gods, and room to tolerate the beliefs of others, and not dismiss them as lies or foolhardy.

I do not dismiss them as lies or foolhardy.
I dismiss the creationists as fools and dellusional.

You can have religion while accepting the obvious.
Evolution is fact. The Earth and Universe was not created by a supreme being.

HH

You really are closed minded Happy.

You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in the face.

Your immature insults just magnify your ignorance.

He must go to the same church that Tom Cruise goes to.
The thing is there are scientific fact in the bible that was written 2000 years ago that scientist are just now proving true. Yet they were written by people who could not have scientificly known of such things.
For instance:There are mountains on the bottom of the ocean floor (Jonah 2:5-6). Only in the last century have we discovered that there are towering mountains and deep trenches in the depths of the sea.
Yet the bible doesnt answer all of anyones questions. If it did...there would be no reason for FAITH. And the bible says that.
I do find it mathmaticly wrong to say we evoled from anything. According to Darwins theory all life is constantly changing and evolving. Humans have only been on the earth for about 200,000 years. And we have built cities, art, cars, airplanes, ect.
But the crocodile has been here for 300 million years?
Cockroaches have been on earth for 400 million years?
Whales have been on earth about 40 million years.
So why is it no other form of life on earth has evoled to where humans have? Its mathmaticly inpossible that humans would be the only form of life on earth to evoled to this state. And in such a short time.

All i see you people post is creationist distortions and lies.
Blooddrive, even the so called experts say the bible's texts
trace back over 5,000 years. You are a bit off.

But distortion and lies seem to be the stuff creationists thrive on.

"I dismiss the creationists as fools and delusional.
You can have religion while accepting the obvious.
Evolution is fact. The Earth and Universe was not created by a supreme being."

I deal with scientific fact, you guys embrace the Bible.
Enjoy it. I prefer fact.

Just think, we Atheists, like you are immortals, sort of.
We are the end product of a life form that has been alive and re-producing for 4,000,000,000 years!
You and I will die, but our children carry on that immortality.
Unbroken life for 4,000,000,000 or more years.
Try and rejoice in life instead of petty religious dogma.

HH

Whatever.

We'll both see when we die.

The best part of all this ...and in all the other threads about creation. You can see statements, facts, sience at work in most everyones posts...and both sides of it. Its a good debate...but all HappyHappy can do is spout "Nu-uh" ...cant back up anything he posts...thats just too funny. Dont worry ..maybe one day that brain cell will split and u will have TWO brain cells to work with.