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Egypt...

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:58 pm
by Pudfark
Obama will go down in history as the president who lost Egypt

Jimmy Carter will go down in American history as "the president who lost Iran," which during his term went from being a major strategic ally of the United States to being the revolutionary Islamic Republic. Barack Obama will be remembered as the president who "lost" Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt, and during whose tenure America's alliances in the Middle East crumbled.

The superficial circumstances are similar. In both cases, a United States in financial crisis and after failed wars loses global influence under a leftist president whose good intentions are interpreted abroad as expressions of weakness. The results are reflected in the fall of regimes that were dependent on their relationship with Washington for survival, or in a change in their orientation, as with Ankara.

America's general weakness clearly affects its friends. But unlike Carter, who preached human rights even when it hurt allies, Obama sat on the fence and exercised caution. He neither embraced despised leaders nor evangelized for political freedom, for fear of undermining stability.

Obama began his presidency with trips to Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and in speeches in Ankara and Cairo tried to forge new ties between the United States and the Muslim world. His message to Muslims was "I am one of you," and he backed it by quoting from the Koran. President Hosni Mubarak did not join him on the stage at Cairo University, and Obama did not mention his host. But he did not imitate his hated predecessor, President George W. Bush, with blunt calls for democracy and freedom.

Obama apparently believed the main problem of the Middle East was the Israeli occupation, and focused his policy on demanding the suspension of construction in the settlements and on the abortive attempt to renew the peace talks. That failure led him to back off from the peace process in favor of concentrating on heading off an Israeli-Iranian war.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... t-1.340057
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Analysts warned Obama: Don't end up on the wrong side of Egypt's revolution

As the demonstrations and clashes unfolded in Egypt over the last week, senior officials in the American administration tried – maniacally – to avoid taking a side in the conflict.

Essentially, the American pendulum swung between cautionary estimation that President Hosni Mubarak's regime was "stable" and U.S. Vice President Joe Biden's denial that he had referred to the Egyptian leader as a "dictator".

Simultaneously, the White House lapped criticism on the Egyptian regime in general and on the way Mubarak was handling the demonstrations in particular.

Washington's initial careful responses caused American analysts to take Barack Obama to task and warn him that by supporting the Egyptian president, he was likely to find himself on the wrong side of the revolution.

Despite Obama's cautionary approach, the British Daily Telegraph revealed that the pragmatic Americans had played a double game with Mubarak by secretly backing those responsible for the current uprising that spent three years planning a coup in Egypt.

A December 2008 cable dispatched to Washington by the U.S. ambassador in Cairo indicates that the Americans were well acquainted with the Egyptian opposition's plan to change the regime

http://www.haaretz.com/news/internation ... n-1.340005
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No surprise here..from the fellow known to vote "Present"....

Old Pudfark sez: " The difference between "Present" and "President" is? No "id"....probably cuz, he ain't got none...."

Re: Egypt...

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:54 pm
by callmeslick
Israel (source of your linkage) might not like how this whole thing plays out(and, as I said, Eqypt is but step two in a multi-step process that is just starting in the Arab world). So what? The fact is, Obama so far has done pretty well in keeping a low US profile, and all sides domestically have given the administration very high marks, that I've heard so far. The problem in Eqypt to overcome is this: when peaceful, generally non radicalized protesters get hit with tear gas, after their eyes clear up, the canisters lobbed at them read "Made in USA". Not a good start, and the problem for Obama(and our nation as a whole) is how to overcome a shitty image in terms of human rights in that region. We fucked that up with Iran(no not all Carter's fault, the entire US establishment), and could well do so again. This time, the nations in play are central to the transport of a huge percentage of our daily oil needs. And, no, before some pinhead chimes in, we could never have offset what we import via domestic production. If you have any doubts, ask someone in the oil business.

Re: Egypt...

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:00 pm
by Pudfark
callmeslick wrote:Israel (source of your linkage) might not like how this whole thing plays out(and, as I said, Eqypt is but step two in a multi-step process that is just starting in the Arab world). So what? The fact is, Obama so far has done pretty well in keeping a low US profile, and all sides domestically have given the administration very high marks, that I've heard so far. The problem in Eqypt to overcome is this: when peaceful, generally non radicalized protesters get hit with tear gas, after their eyes clear up, the canisters lobbed at them read "Made in USA". Not a good start, and the problem for Obama(and our nation as a whole) is how to overcome a shitty image in terms of human rights in that region. We fucked that up with Iran(no not all Carter's fault, the entire US establishment), and could well do so again. This time, the nations in play are central to the transport of a huge percentage of our daily oil needs. And, no, before some pinhead chimes in, we could never have offset what we import via domestic production. If you have any doubts, ask someone in the oil business.
So, then? What are the choices to ensure and insure adequate oil flow to the U.S.?
Heavy emphasis on "insure".

Old Pudfark sez: " What's yer plan? "

Re: Egypt...

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:30 pm
by callmeslick
Pudfark wrote:So, then? What are the choices to ensure and insure adequate oil flow to the U.S.?
Heavy emphasis on "insure".

Old Pudfark sez: " What's yer plan? "

the choices are few and very far between. All we can do is hang onto our hats and hope that the shit we've ignored for around 40 years doesn't blow up in our faces. We can hang back and encourage any semblence of a civilized system of democratic regime that emerges in any nation in the region.
I know, folks are going to suggest we can control this militarily, but we've stretched things too thin, and proven incapable of succeeding. At this point, that would fail miserably. So, buckle up, kids, the ride is going to get...um, interesting.

Re: Egypt...

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:21 am
by fatman
Well the land os Saus and Syria will be next watch this space

Re: Egypt...

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:26 am
by nicolas10
and me who thought egypt was a bit more to the west.

Re: Egypt...

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:24 pm
by Pudfark
callmeslick wrote:
Pudfark wrote:So, then? What are the choices to ensure and insure adequate oil flow to the U.S.?
Heavy emphasis on "insure".

Old Pudfark sez: " What's yer plan? "

the choices are few and very far between. All we can do is hang onto our hats and hope that the shit we've ignored for around 40 years doesn't blow up in our faces. We can hang back and encourage any semblence of a civilized system of democratic regime that emerges in any nation in the region.
I know, folks are going to suggest we can control this militarily, but we've stretched things too thin, and proven incapable of succeeding. At this point, that would fail miserably. So, buckle up, kids, the ride is going to get...um, interesting.
Why "buckle up", when you ain't got no gitty up and go....in the gas tank?

Old Pudfark sez: " Seems to me? Inevitably, the West will control the oil or the Chinese will... "

Re: Egypt...

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:06 am
by nuf
Pudfark wrote:Obama will go down in history as the president who lost Egypt


What is he supposed to do? Mubarak is as good as gone with or without open support of the US and sticking up for him would not benefit Obama as he´d be backing a loser.

But tell me this, why are so many people (i read this on quite a few US sites) who always claim they are for freedom and democracy suddenly opposed to the egyptian people rising up (pretty peacefully concerning the scope so far)? It seems like when it comes down to it a US friendly dictatorship or authoritarian regime is still preferred.

So not much seems to have changed from the past.


*Yes i know that the result of these protests will very likely be different from what we in the west understand as a modern democracy. I´m just talking about the acts happening now.

Re: Egypt...

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:09 am
by Pudfark
I wasn't aware of anybody here, opposed to "democracy" in Egypt....

I was just pointing out, by "links"....what and how, a blow hard inexperienced politician
handles things.....normally, by voting "present"....and the value of "fence sitting"......

Re: Egypt...

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:07 pm
by Crusty
Some Arrogant donut wrote: "Obama will go down in history as the president who lost Egypt"

Pray tell, which one WON it, oh font of knowledge