A Complete Waste of Space

....a few years ago, 2007 to be exact, I wrote on these pages and another, unamed, site that the West had possibly overstayed the welcome in Afghanistan, and might want to just bag the whole effort. Three years later, I almost think I was being overly rosy in my words, although, at the time, I took a beating over not knowing squat, never understanding messages from 'boots on the ground' and the like. This guy, in an op-ed makes me sound cheery:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/26/opini ... t.html?hp#


thoughts?

callmeslick wrote:thoughts?

you expect them from here?

keep your fishin' to the rivers slick

Interesting and the fellow that wrote it made a few points......One that I disagree with is where he said all of the corruption was in Afghanistan, when it's just as bad in Washington and contributing to the same problem/result. I do agree with the military not doing all that it can to win the war. This country, after Vietnam should have learned, that you can't win a war with your hands tied behind your back and your grilfriend giving you advice and buying off the world. To win a war, you cannot compromise. If you do, the outcome will be a compromise, not a win. For the liberals here, NO Surrender = NO Win.

That article was worth a read....Thank You Slick.

Old Pudfark sez: " Until they holler "calf rope", ya ain't got nothing, reference the Korea's "

Good read.

The object of war is to take away your enemies will to fight. That can be accomplished by killing them, breaking all their toys, or by breaking their ability to make toys to wage war with.

What we didn't learn in Nam was that if you are fighting an army of the people, you have to fight and kill the people. The non combatants will eventually get tired of being hammered and quit supporting their army.

The Afghani's have been fighting each other for most of recorded history. We're about to get in the same shape over there that the Russians did. We're fighting the same SOB's that the Russians were and we were supplying them to fight the Russians. Now the Russians and the Chinese are supporting them against us.

Why are we in Afghanistan? I think for the same reason the Russians were. That is the shortest overland route to an ocean that doesn't freeze over for the Russian oil.

Wullie wrote:Good read.

The object of war is to take away your enemies will to fight. That can be accomplished by killing them, breaking all their toys, or by breaking their ability to make toys to wage war with.

Well aren´t we all told that it´s not a war against the people but for winning hearts and minds? Your reason for being in Afghanistan is a valid one imo. It´s geostrategical and has nothing to to with the ones stated 8 years ago. If it was for Al Qaida then Somalia would be a better place to look. If it is for the Taleban then... well they are such an inhomogenious group that... see my next point.

What we didn't learn in Nam was that if you are fighting an army of the people, you have to fight and kill the people. The non combatants will eventually get tired of being hammered and quit supporting their army.

Well. Ok you´re advocating genocide. Let´s see. About 30 mio. Afghans, maybe the women will get tired aftar all the men get killed. Yup, Only 15 mio. people killed and there aren´t many fighters left. Good job. Oh, what about Pakistan and Iran who together have a couple of million fighters by then and will allready have covered some other countries (yours?) with nukes by then? Not to forget al worldwide war against the US by countless other countries?

Nope, genocide doesn´t sound too realistic. And you premise that you can tire people of war was more often proved wrong than right. In the case of Afghanistan it´s definetaly wrong. The opposing forces WANT the west to stay because they can see the devastingt effect the war has in the west. Politicians and Generals saying openly that it very likely will be lost, the NATO becoming fragile, more and more countries withdrawing, big news about the west "buying their peace" from afghan warlords, this is embarrassing and how can a corrupt west demand a fight against corruption from the afghans? ... The opposing forces must have a field day.

The Afghani's have been fighting each other for most of recorded history. We're about to get in the same shape over there that the Russians did. We're fighting the same SOB's that the Russians were and we were supplying them to fight the Russians. Now the Russians and the Chinese are supporting them against us.

Why are we in Afghanistan? I think for the same reason the Russians were. That is the shortest overland route to an ocean that doesn't freeze over for the Russian oil.

I changed my opinion about the war in Afghanistan in the last couple of months. Before i thought the first thing that comes to people mind: Ok if that isn´t enough we need more troops. But that would mean that the strategic idea so far was right and only the iimplementation was wrong. Unfortunately that´s not true. The west blew it. CIMIC, PRTs, Airstrikes on cvilians... since 2006 even NGOs and humanitarian staff gets more and more in the crosshairs bacause the west had the glorious idea to mix up civilian and military actors in the field.

Try to strenghten the afghan security force as much as possible in the next year, end CIMIC immediately, let the military only care for security and not for building wells and get out of there. The world didn´t become safer through the engagement at least from 2002 onwards. This is only a show now because no politician wants to be the one who did it. And that´s costing lifes. June 2010 evan now was the most deadly monst since the beginning of the engagements. 89 soldiers and who knows how many afghan civilians down. And the number will grow big this year. It´s only begun.

Wullie wrote:The Afghani's have been fighting each other for most of recorded history. We're about to get in the same shape over there that the Russians did. We're fighting the same SOB's that the Russians were and we were supplying them to fight the Russians. Now the Russians and the Chinese are supporting them against us.

actually, I think you'll find the money coming from Saudi Arabia(our 'ally'), if you dig deep enough.

Why are we in Afghanistan? I think for the same reason the Russians were. That is the shortest overland route to an ocean that doesn't freeze over for the Russian oil.

yup

see, Daii, some good thinking DID come from this post.
My thoughts, still pretty much unchanged from 2007 are this: We had our chance, back in 2002, to aggressively pursue a more functional Afghanistan. However, we turned the attention to Iraq, for reasons that still make utterly no sense, lost our focus and dithered away 8 years with no real attempt at progress in Afghanistan. I sort of agree with Wullie to this extent: the Afghans have been fighting for centuries, but largely against 'outsiders' who would control their territory. They seemingly develop alliances and such internally that provide a functional society in between outside incursions. Hell, that place was a tourist destination in the 1960's and early 70's! At this point, we've worn out our welcome, more troops will simply be more fodder for the violence, and steadily the US is pissing away up to $1 trillion annually, much of it hidden from public oversight. Ya want to get a handle on deficit spending that isn't necessary? One need look no farther than the useless, wasteful 'military'(quotes, because Pudfark makes a valid point about waste and corruiption over here) operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am hardly endorsing a 'peace and love' program of complete pacifism, but for crying out loud, blundering around in cultures we don't understand and pissing away huge chunks of our treasury doing so isn't going to accomplish a damned thing. As the op-ed author wrote, "when we landed at Normandy, those troops had no thought about winning hearts or minds". War should be a rare, necessary option, and when necessary, should be fought to a victory. I see no such opportunity in that quagmire.

Here's why you guys stay in Afghanistan.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... 926822.htm

Any questions?

China and India have bid for contracts to develop Afghan mines, with the Chinese winning a huge copper contract. An iron-ore contract is due to be awarded later this year.

Be interesting to see how the Chinese deal with the Taliban. I bet there won't be any touchy-feely heart and mind bullshit. I figure they'll pay them to stay the fuck away or kill 'em if they don't want to be paid off.