another topic to ponder.....

[callmeslick]

last night, a good friend called from the Gulf Coast. Along with a much more upbeat view of the oil mess, for the first time in a while, we got to discussing the core problems with the economics of the nation. His view was interesting, and I'm still digesting his proposed 'solution', but felt it might be a topic for those of you(who outnumber vastly the moron contingent) with a brain to bat around.
First off, in the interest of perspective to his views, I'll briefly describe my friend: he is a well-off individual, mid 40s, old southern money. Like me, we were raised with a lot of influences from folks who lived through the Depression, and also were raised with sort of traditional Southern values of commonsense economics. Very pertinent, also, is that while neither of us absolutely HAS to hold a job to provide for our families, both of us do, as that's how we were raised....to preserve capital and not piss it away.

Now, his key observation: In our lifetime, we have watched the whole dynamic of expectations within the US workforce go haywire. Not all that long ago, a working man in the US was satisfied with(and considered prosperous and successful) if he had an adequate housing for his family, useable, but not luxurious transportation, simple necessities and the money to provide food and healthcare for his family. Excess income went to simple vacations with the family and savings for the betterment of his children's future. This all goes to Wullies comment to me the other day about the 'American dream' slipping away. This WAS the American dream, and the result was a generation to generation betterment of families that followed it. Where we are now is in an instant gratification society, wherein everyone, almost irregardless of income level expects luxuries such as 2600 square foot houses, $40,000 cars, XBox's for every kid, $5000 Disneyfied vacations etc, with little or no regard for debt, savings and most importantly, the upward mobility of the generations to follow. My friend's 'solution', such as it is, to wake up the populace is a massive Depression, wherein the government is forced to say, "we just don't have the money, you all are on your own. Figure it out for yourselves how to survive.". Harsh? To say the least. But, he does have the germ of a point about expectations. Workers today with very moderate incomes expect to live in a level of luxury that the wealthy didn't obtain two generations ago. And, much of what they are purchasing is both with made places other than the US and on borrowed money to boot, sacrificing any long-term financial planning. All the while, these folks go through life with the complete expectation that Social Security, Medicare and other government programs will cover their asses in old age, and their children can just figure it out for themselves.
Now, while I did agree with much of his premise, I put out the idea that a 'solution' such as his has led to such horrors as Naziism, Russian communism turning into a dictatorial Gulag state, and assorted minor horrors, not to mention the toll on suffering individuals. There must be some way to turn things around, but perhaps, I am just more optimistic than him. I am of the opinion that a rudimentary government safety net is both necessary and doable. I pointed out to him, as I often do in such discussions, that folks of our means can and should back such things through taxes, and not(as is his bent) merely be depended on to contribute heavily to public charities. I do look around me, and watch families with under $80,000 or so in total income blow $20,000 plus on weddings, buy a couple $40,000 cars, buy $350,000 houses and just shake my head in amazement. His medicine is harsh, and I don't see the public willingly taking it. What are the thoughts here?

[Triad773]

Interesting, Sick. Yeah I have a 16 yr old step daughter and she seems as spoiled as all get out I was reflecting on what passed for a well kitted out childhood in the 60's/70's: a little transistor radio, maybe one with a cassette player or something if you were lucky, a TV in the house was good, but if you were lucky enough to get a hand-me-down in your bedroom, that was considered very cool. Oh- and a bike completed to picture for many days filled with fun and friends.

Now there are too many 'must-haves' for kids today: iPods, laptops, digital cameras, party money, etc. And no pressure from parents to make them earn jack

My concern is that the ultimate fruition of the capitalist system will be humanity will pass into oblivion with a whimper, instead of the (more exciting and less drawn out ) BANG we were all promised in the Cold War

FDR didn't only try spending his way into recovery, he did it by investing in infrastructure: The Hoover Dam, and many schools and bridges were built in the 1930's, with WWII ultimately being the main catalyst to propel the economy into high gear. Now I know all you guys know this stuff, but why the asshats in Wa$hington have the WAR before the recovery is beyond me.

The World Bank has this program where when they go into a country that has had economic turmoil, they have this Gestalt recovery method that purports short-term sacrifices will lead to more stable growth later-- but only if the government is willing to take austerity steps to get things back in order. I don't see that happening in the US of A where the name of the game is to keep people fat, dumb and happy so they can vote in the next opportunistic bozo

I think that recovery efforts in this country and really being mis-handled. How many remember that big bridge in Minneapolis that collapsed a couple of summers ago? I was contracting at an engineering firm those days, and there was hope in the industry that it might spur infrastructure renovation projects across the country. Unfortunately, the result was more hot air and structural inspections (which isn't totally bad, but more of a proactive response was expected).

Yeah something needs to be done okay-- got to give it to Bu$h the second so far: he made more of his 'constituents' happy then Obama.

[ruggbutt]

Let's not forget that the depression lasted much longer than it would have with FDR's policies in place. Some of which today are a bane on the taxpayer.

[Pudfark]

What "they" the government should of done was lock up all the thieves that stole from everybody...as an example to all. What they have done so far is to drink champagne and piss in the public punch bowl, while draining the last of this great nations financial resources. They are as big a thief as the one's that they should have locked up....

All that being said...here comes hyper inflation and a default to your buddies plan.....There is little time left to unscramble this egg...Only severe austerity measures can save this country.

Old Pudfark sez: " It must begin this fall...can you hear the thunder? "

[Triad773]

Old Pudfark sez: " It must begin this fall...can you hear the thunder? "

HA! Had to laugh at myself- I thought it said "It will begin to fall..."

Ah oh well- I thought it was kinda funny.

I don't think it matters WHO 'wins' this November: one thing be sure, they'll be up to their arses in alligators

Cheers (it's Friday, yes?)

Triad